jimmyjimmy

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Spectrum of punishment -- like "few stripes, many stripes" -- has always been hard for me to grasp.

Hyperbole may be on the table, yeah, maybe, I mean, neither Calvinists or Arminians talk about WHOLE CITIES being saved or not, rather the focus is on individuals...

Jesus seems to say that there will be degrees. I have no idea what that means, other than what He has said about it being more bearable.

I am a conservative, so I don't play fast and loose with the texts; however, I would push back against many of my conservative brothers who don't allow for figures of speech and hyperbole. Also, genre can't be ignored. I try to take stuff that meant to be taken literally, literally, but there is much that is not meant to taken that way, such as, "eat my flesh and drink my blood". (I've done it now!)

winter-is-coming-prepare-for-battle.jpg
 
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Anto9us

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Uh oh, jimmyjimmy...

lol

Didn't Jesus say His flesh was REAL DOUGHNUTS and His blood was REAL COFFEE? Something like that, and even before sunday school my stomach got stretched out, hungrier more and more as time went on, and I need to call it a day too, especially about food, as well as discussing Bible and religion, but yes it's a GREAT THREAD

There was cheesecake with strawberries to pour on it; I was predestined to gluttonize
 
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I'm_Sorry

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I think this is Calvin's comments

Matthew 11 Calvin's Commentaries

Can someone verify that it is please?

Thank you.

Matthew 11:21

If those mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon. As Tyre and Sidon, in consequence of their proximity, were at that time abhorred for their ungodliness, pride, debauchery, and other vices, Christ employs this comparison for the express purpose of making a deeper and more painful impression on his Jewish countrymen. There was not one of them who did not look upon the inhabitants of Tyre and Sidon as abominable despisers of God. It is, therefore, no small heightening of his curse, when Christ says, that there would have been more hope of reformation from those places in which there was no religion, than is to be seen in Judea itself.

Lest any should raise thorny questions [40] about the secret decrees of God, we must remember, that this discourse of our Lord is accommodated to the ordinary capacity of the human mind. [41] Comparing the citizens of Bethsaida, and their neighbors, with the inhabitants of Tyre and Sidon, he reasons, not of what God foresaw would be done either by the one or by the other, but of what both parties would have done, so far as could be judged from the facts. The exceedingly corrupt morals and unrestrained debauchery of those cities might be ascribed to ignorance; for there the voice of God had never been heard, nor had miracles been performed, to warn them to repent. But in the cities of Galilee, which Christ upbraids, there was a display of very hardened obstinacy in despising miracles, of which they had seen a vast number without reaping any advantage. In short, the words of Christ convey nothing more than that the inhabitants of Chorazin and Bethsaida go beyond those of Tyre and Sidon in malice and incurable contempt of God.

And yet we have no right to contend with God, for having passed by others of whom better hopes might have been entertained, and displaying his power before some who were extremely wicked and altogether desperate. Those on whom he does not bestow his mercy are justly appointed to perdition. If he withhold his word from some, and allow them to perish, while, in order to render others more inexcusable, he entreats and exhorts them, in a variety of ways, to repentance, who shall charge him, on this account, with injustice? Let us, therefore, aware of our own weakness, learn to contemplate this height and depth [42] with reverence; for it is intolerable fretfulness and pride that is manifested by those who cannot endure to ascribe praise to the righteousness of God, except so far as it comes within the reach of their senses, and who disdainfully reject those mysteries, which it was their duty to adore, simply because the reason of them is not fully evident.

If the mighty works had been done. We have said that these words inform us concerning the right use of miracles, though they likewise include doctrine; for Christ did not remain silent, [43] while he was holding out to their view the power of the Father; but, on the contrary, miracles were added to the Gospel, that they might attend to what was spoken by Christ.

In sackcloth and ashes Repentance is here described by outward signs, the use of which was at that time common in the Church of God: not that Christ attaches importance to that matter, but because he accommodates himself to the capacity of the common people. We know that believers are not only required to exercise repentance for a few days, but to cherish it incessantly till death. But there is no necessity, in the present day, for being clothed with sackcloth, and sprinkled with ashes; and, therefore, there is not always occasion for that outward profession of repentance, but only when, after some aggravated revolt, men turn to God. Sackcloth and ashes are, no doubt, indications of guilt, for the purpose of turning away the wrath of the Judge; [44] and therefore relate strictly to the beginning of conversion. But as men testify by this ceremony their sorrow and grief, it must be preceded by hatred of sin, fear of God, and mortification of the flesh, according to the words of Joel, (2:13,) Rend your hearts and not your garments. We now see the reason why sackcloth and ashes are mentioned by Christ along with repentance, when he speaks of Tyre and Sidon, to the inhabitants of which the Gospel could not have been preached, without condemning their past life, leaving nothing for them, but to betake themselves to the wretched apparel of criminals for the sake of humbly beseeching pardon. Such, too, is the reference of the word sitting, which is employed by Luke, Sitting in sackcloth and ashes; for it denotes "lying prostrate on the ground,"--a posture adapted to express the grief of wretched persons, as is evident from many passages of the Prophets.
 
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twin1954

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Matthew 11:21 (NRSV) “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the deeds of power done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

According to Jesus, if Tyre and Sidon were shown miracles, they would have repented, proving who is and isn't "elect" is not fixed.

If they were elect in the Calvinist sense, they would be saved. They were not. If they were not elect in the Calvinist sense, no miracles would convince them. Jesus says otherwise.
I am reqally surprised that none of the Calvinists read further down in the passage:

(Mat 11:21) Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

(Mat 11:22) But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

(Mat 11:23) And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

(Mat 11:24) But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

(Mat 11:25) At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

(Mat 11:26) Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

(Mat 11:27) All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
 
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Friend-of-Jesus

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Matthew 11:21 (NRSV) “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the deeds of power done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

According to Jesus, if Tyre and Sidon were shown miracles, they would have repented, proving who is and isn't "elect" is not fixed.

If they were elect in the Calvinist sense, they would be saved. They were not. If they were not elect in the Calvinist sense, no miracles would convince them. Jesus says otherwise.

Only presidents and Congress people are elect.
 
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twin1954

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Only presidents and Congress people are elect.
Perhaps you should read the Scriptures then and find out that God has an elect, chosen, people in this world whom He sent the Son to redeem and accomplish their full salvation and the Spirit to give life through the power of the preaching of the Gospel. They alone will hear and believe.
 
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Friend-of-Jesus

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Perhaps you should read the Scriptures then and find out that God has an elect, chosen, people in this world whom He sent the Son to redeem and accomplish their full salvation and the Spirit to give life through the power of the preaching of the Gospel. They alone will hear and believe.

Election 2017
 
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jimmyjimmy

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"There are none so blind as those who won't see."

Twin just answered the OP, or, shall I say, Christ answered the OP, and you reply by sticking your fingers into your ears, and covering your eyes.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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I am reqally surprised that none of the Calvinists read further down in the passage:

(Mat 11:21) Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

(Mat 11:22) But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

(Mat 11:23) And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

(Mat 11:24) But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

(Mat 11:25) At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

(Mat 11:26) Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

(Mat 11:27) All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Q: Can Calvinists explain this verse?

A: Yes, and a one just did.
 
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JoeP222w

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According to Jesus, if Tyre and Sidon were shown miracles, they would have repented, proving who is and isn't "elect" is not fixed.

Can you expand this? I must be dense, but I not seeing the connection here how this demonstrates election is not fixed. Can you define this in the positive sense?

If they were elect in the Calvinist sense, they would be saved. They were not. If they were not elect in the Calvinist sense, no miracles would convince them. Jesus says otherwise.

How did you come to know who the elect are or not? God does not reveal to us who the elect are.
 
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EmSw

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If God did X, then Tyre and Sidon would be Y.
God did not do X, therefore Tyre and Sidon are not Y.
Conclusion: What God did (or didn't do) determined the fate of Tyre and Sidon. Therefore, he chose their fate.

No, I'd say it works out quite nicely for the Calvinists on that one. Have a nice day.

A fine example of man not having a choice.
 
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Rubiks

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If God did X, then Tyre and Sidon would be Y.
God did not do X, therefore Tyre and Sidon are not Y.
Conclusion: What God did (or didn't do) determined the fate of Tyre and Sidon. Therefore, he chose their fate.

No, I'd say it works out quite nicely for the Calvinists on that one. Have a nice day.

Perhaps predestination and free will are both true. God gives varying amount of grace to each person (I don't think any Arminian would dispute this) and God leaves it to man to decide whether to be saved or not.
 
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Rubiks

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I haven't given it much thought, but what initially comes to mind is a question:

If God desires all men to be saved, and if Matthew 11:21 is in fact talking about salvation (Which I don't think is the case. It's your assumption) then why didn't He do those miracles in those cities?

  1. Its not my assumption. Its the plain reading of the text.
  2. Who said anything about God putting every effort to get every person saved?
 
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Rubiks

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I am reqally surprised that none of the Calvinists read further down in the passage:

(Mat 11:21) Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

(Mat 11:22) But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

(Mat 11:23) And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

(Mat 11:24) But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

(Mat 11:25) At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

(Mat 11:26) Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

(Mat 11:27) All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

I understand that some get to hear the gospel and some don't. That still does not explain how those cities could not have repented if they were not elect.

Why do you think Jesus said it would be more tolerable for them on the day of judgement?
 
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Monna

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God directed their steps elsewhere. He did not want the gospel preached in Asia.

That doesn't logically follow. God directed their steps elsewhere. He did not want them to go to Asia, at least just then. If he did not want the gospel preached in Asia why did Jesus tell the disciples to go into all the world and preach the gospel? Or perhaps it's my logic that's wrong, and in fact Asia is not part of the world?

God could quite easily have other people evangelising in Asia, or in his own plans the timing was not exactly right.
 
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AlexDTX

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Acts 16:5-7New King James Version (NKJV)
5 So the churches were strengthened in the faith, and increased in number daily.

The Macedonian Call
6 Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia. 7 After they had come to Mysia, they tried to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit did not permit them.

God directed their steps elsewhere. He did not want the gospel preached in Asia.
He did not want Paul to preach there because the harvest was ripe in Macedonia. These same cities of northern Turkey (Asia Minor) are the same that Peter addresses his epistles to.

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.​

Either Peter had ministered to them or someone else, but they became believers and he sent his letter to them first.
 
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AlexDTX

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Now if Christ says He will draw all men to Himself, yet people live and die not hearing the gospel, how then can what Christ says be understood as he will draw all men to be each and every single living person all over the earth are drawn.
The verse does not say he will draw all men, which is italicized which means that the translators added it for clarification. The topic he is speaking of is being lifted up on the cross. The context shows that he means all sin will be drawn to him. In other words, his redemption will be total.
 
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