Rubiks

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Matthew 11:21 (NRSV) “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the deeds of power done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

According to Jesus, if Tyre and Sidon were shown miracles, they would have repented, proving who is and isn't "elect" is not fixed.

If they were elect in the Calvinist sense, they would be saved. They were not. If they were not elect in the Calvinist sense, no miracles would convince them. Jesus says otherwise.
 

JIMINZ

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Matthew 11:21 (NRSV) “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the deeds of power done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

According to Jesus, if Tyre and Sidon were shown miracles, they would have repented, proving who is and isn't "elect" is not fixed.

If they were elect in the Calvinist sense, they would be saved. They were not. If they were not elect in the Calvinist sense, no miracles would convince them. Jesus says otherwise.

Elect in the New Testament only pertains to the Remnant spoken of in.

Rom 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace

Rom 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

1Cor. 10:11
Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Not Christians in general.
 
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Dale

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Matthew 11:21 (NRSV) “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the deeds of power done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

According to Jesus, if Tyre and Sidon were shown miracles, they would have repented, proving who is and isn't "elect" is not fixed.

If they were elect in the Calvinist sense, they would be saved. They were not. If they were not elect in the Calvinist sense, no miracles would convince them. Jesus says otherwise.


I don't think they can explain it.
 
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Anto9us

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Col 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Col 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Paul, writing to mainly Gentile Colossians, calls them ELECT - I do not believe ELECT refers only to Remnant of Israel...


and, no, I don't think they can explain it either
 
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sdowney717

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But that did not happen did it.
God did not send anyone there.
About election, God makes sure the 'elect' will hear the gospel.
Now what about these folks here in Acts, where the Holy Spirit selectively did not permit the apostles to go and preach to them. God forbid them.

Acts 16:5-7New King James Version (NKJV)
5 So the churches were strengthened in the faith, and increased in number daily.

The Macedonian Call
6 Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia. 7 After they had come to Mysia, they tried to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit did not permit them.

God directed their steps elsewhere. He did not want the gospel preached in Asia.

8 So passing by Mysia, they came down to Troas. 9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night. A man of Macedonia stood and pleaded with him, saying, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” 10 Now after he had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go to Macedonia, concluding that the Lord had called us to preach the gospel to them.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Matthew 11:21 (NRSV) “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the deeds of power done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

According to Jesus, if Tyre and Sidon were shown miracles, they would have repented, proving who is and isn't "elect" is not fixed.

If they were elect in the Calvinist sense, they would be saved. They were not. If they were not elect in the Calvinist sense, no miracles would convince them. Jesus says otherwise.

I haven't given it much thought, but what initially comes to mind is a question:

If God desires all men to be saved, and if Matthew 11:21 is in fact talking about salvation (Which I don't think is the case. It's your assumption) then why didn't He do those miracles in those cities?
 
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sdowney717

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And scripture is not a matter of someone being a better competitor, a trained speaker.
Paul called such false apostles.

2 Cor 11
1 Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly—and indeed you do bear with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!

Paul and False Apostles
5 For I consider that I am not at all inferior to the most eminent apostles. 6 Even though I am untrained in speech, yet I am not in knowledge. But we have been thoroughly manifested among you in all things.

7 Did I commit sin in humbling myself that you might be exalted, because I preached the gospel of God to you free of charge? 8 I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to minister to you. 9 And when I was present with you, and in need, I was a burden to no one, for what I lacked the brethren who came from Macedonia supplied. And in everything I kept myself from being burdensome to you, and so I will keep myself. 10 As the truth of Christ is in me, no one shall stop me from this boasting in the regions of Achaia. 11 Why? Because I do not love you? God knows!

12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
 
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sdowney717

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Romans 10, God must send someone for them to hear, and if God does not send someone, If God forbids they preach to them, then, God has not determined they hear the gospel of salvation, so they must not be elect then.

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
And how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent?


As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
 
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Albion

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Matthew 11:21 (NRSV) “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the deeds of power done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

According to Jesus, if Tyre and Sidon were shown miracles, they would have repented, proving who is and isn't "elect" is not fixed.

If they were elect in the Calvinist sense, they would be saved.
I could be wrong, but I don't see anything in that verse about "saved."
 
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mark kennedy

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Matthew 11:21 (NRSV) “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the deeds of power done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

According to Jesus, if Tyre and Sidon were shown miracles, they would have repented, proving who is and isn't "elect" is not fixed.

If they were elect in the Calvinist sense, they would be saved. They were not. If they were not elect in the Calvinist sense, no miracles would convince them. Jesus says otherwise.
How do you know they weren't, it just says they would have repented.
 
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sdowney717

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Christ did not go there to preach, so they were not elect, regardless of how they would have reacted to Jesus's message. How many have come and gone and not heard. Now if Christ says He will draw all men to Himself, yet people live and die not hearing the gospel, how then can what Christ says be understood as he will draw all men to be each and every single living person all over the earth are drawn. Obviously, some are not drawn because they are not elect to be saved.

And consider Christ saying this in Luke 10, after talking about Tyre and Sidon.

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

23 Then He turned to His disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see; 24 for I tell you that many prophets and kings have desired to see what you see, and have not seen it, and to hear what you hear, and have not heard it.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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I could be wrong, but I don't see anything in that verse about "saved."

You are correct.

Remembering that this is pre-cross, there is no proclamation of the gospel going on here. Natural guilt is not enough to save. Even those baptized into John's baptism weren't baptized into Christ.

Israel went through countless cycles of repentance, and unfaithfulness. . .

Also, Jesus used hyperbole. (I'm not, at this time, making that argument, but it's on the table, I think)
 
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Anto9us

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Mat 11:20
Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

Mat 11:21
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Mat 11:22
But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

Mat 11:23
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Mat 11:24
But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

.
I dunno, the parts I bolded/italicized -- sure makes it sound like a "saved vs not-saved" issue
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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According to Jesus, if Tyre and Sidon were shown miracles, they would have repented, proving who is and isn't "elect" is not fixed.

If God did X, then Tyre and Sidon would be Y.
God did not do X, therefore Tyre and Sidon are not Y.
Conclusion: What God did (or didn't do) determined the fate of Tyre and Sidon. Therefore, he chose their fate.

No, I'd say it works out quite nicely for the Calvinists on that one. Have a nice day.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Christ did not go there to preach, so they were not elect, regardless of how they would have reacted to Jesus's message. How many have come and gone and not heard. Now if Christ says He will draw all men to Himself, yet people live and die not hearing the gospel, how then can what Christ says be understood as he will draw all men.

And consider Christ saying this in Luke 10

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

23 Then He turned to His disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see; 24 for I tell you that many prophets and kings have desired to see what you see, and have not seen it, and to hear what you hear, and have not heard it.

Winner!
 
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RC1970

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Matthew 11:21 (NRSV) “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the deeds of power done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

According to Jesus, if Tyre and Sidon were shown miracles, they would have repented, proving who is and isn't "elect" is not fixed.

If they were elect in the Calvinist sense, they would be saved. They were not. If they were not elect in the Calvinist sense, no miracles would convince them. Jesus says otherwise.
When Jesus says that they would have "repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes", He is not referring to that inward repentance that is necessary for salvation, but the outward repentance which is temporary and fades over time. This outward repentance was (and is still) very common among unregenerate people.

"and rend your hearts and not your garments.” ~ Joel 2:13

But the people of Chorazin and Bethsaida were so wicked, they didn't even do any temporary repentance.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Mat 11:20
Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

Mat 11:21
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Mat 11:22
But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

Mat 11:23
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Mat 11:24
But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

.
I dunno, the parts I bolded/italicized -- sure makes it sound like a "saved vs not-saved" issue

All parties mentioned are condemned; however, there is a spectrum of punishment.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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When Jesus says that they would have "repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes", He is not referring to that inward repentance that is necessary for salvation, but the outward repentance which is temporary and fades over time. This outward repentance was (and is still) very common among unregenerate people.

"and rend your hearts and not your garments.” ~ Joel 2:13

But the people of Chorazin and Bethsaida were so wicked, they didn't even do any temporary repentance.

Yes, as in Nineveh and in John's baptism.
 
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sdowney717

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Yes, as in Nineveh and in John's baptism.
True, Nineveh was a delayed destruction.
God sends Jonah to Nineveh, to demonstrate His mercy, which is why Jonah does not want to preach to them. I always wondered what happens to Jonah after God talks with him as Jonah is watching the city to see what will happen.
 
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Anto9us

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All parties mentioned are condemned; however, there is a spectrum of punishment.

Spectrum of punishment -- like "few stripes, many stripes" -- has always been hard for me to grasp.

Hyperbole may be on the table, yeah, maybe, I mean, neither Calvinists or Arminians talk about WHOLE CITIES being saved or not, rather the focus is on individuals...
 
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