Can Calvinists explain this verse?

Anto9us · Jul 31, 2017

Rev 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

jimmyjimmy · Jul 31, 2017

Anto9us said:
Rev 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Is everyone's name in the Book of Life, in your opinion?

Hammster · Jul 31, 2017

Anto9us said:
Rev 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

And that punches holes in Calvinism how?

sdowney717 · Jul 31, 2017

Anto9us said:
Rev 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

That is just saying overcomers God will not blot out of His book of Life of the Lamb.
Believers overcome the world by their faith, so they will not be blotted out. 1 John 5.
I read this simply as a reinforcing encouraging truth that those who believe have eternal life.

Jesus said if you confess Him before men, He will confess you before God and the elect angels. Believers do confess Christ before men, they confess Jesus is Lord speaking by the Holy Spirit.

5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Anto9us · Jul 31, 2017

Everyone's name is written in the Book of Life -- it would have to BE THERE in order to be BLOTTED OUT.

The God of Calvinism would have to write someone's name knowing he would eventually be blotted out; the Revelation verse indicates the possibility of being blotted out.

So yeah, there goes Calvinism, there goes Universalism -- good riddance...

Hammster · Jul 31, 2017

Anto9us said:
Everyone's name is written in the Book of Life -- it would have to BE THERE in order to be BLOTTED OUT.

The God of Calvinism would have to write someone's name knowing he would eventually be blotted out; the Revelation verse indicates the possibility of being blotted out.

So yeah, there goes Calvinism, there goes Universalism -- good riddance...

Is there a difference between the book of life and the Lamb's book of life?

Anto9us · Jul 31, 2017

I think they are one and the same, all names written at creation, a person can DO SOMETHING to remain in it (overcome, accept Christ); or do something to get blotted out of it (die w/o accepting Christ, take the Mark of the Beast)

Sola1517 · Jul 31, 2017

Rubiks said:
Matthew 11:21 (NRSV) “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the deeds of power done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

According to Jesus, if Tyre and Sidon were shown miracles, they would have repented, proving who is and isn't "elect" is not fixed.

If they were elect in the Calvinist sense, they would be saved. They were not. If they were not elect in the Calvinist sense, no miracles would convince them. Jesus says otherwise.

The fact that God didn't show them those miracles tells you what?

Hammster · Jul 31, 2017

Anto9us said:
I think they are one and the same, all names written at creation, a person can DO SOMETHING to remain in it (overcome, accept Christ); or do something to get blotted out of it (die w/o accepting Christ, take the Mark of the Beast)

So even though the same author wrote the same book, you are going with them being the same because?

jimmyjimmy · Jul 31, 2017

Anto9us said:
Everyone's name is written in the Book of Life -- it would have to BE THERE in order to be BLOTTED OUT.

The God of Calvinism would have to write someone's name knowing he would eventually be blotted out; the Revelation verse indicates the possibility of being blotted out.

So yeah, there goes Calvinism, there goes Universalism -- good riddance...

Why have a book if everyone is listed?

Also, are you saying that all men, without exception, are saved, but some lose their salvation?

Rubiks · Jul 31, 2017

Sola1517 said:
The fact that God didn't show them those miracles tells you what?

Answer the title of this thread and I'll answer your question. deal?

Anto9us · Jul 31, 2017

IMO, salvation is accomplished for all -- some die never having accepted it -- not all Arminians are OSnAS; probably majority are OSAS

As Arminius worded it, (I'm paraphrasing) it is impossible for a BELIEVER to lose his salvation, but it is possible for a person to CEASE being a believer.

I worried that I was getting off-topic from rubiks' OP, but the more I thought about it, the whole point is a SYNERGY of God and man; like, the Tyre and Sidon people could have/would have repented, in other words - their DOING SOMETHING (repenting) would have meant things are NOT FIXED, just as the OP stated.

The SYNERGY in the blotted out/not blotted out - is that people do something (overcome, take the Mark) to remain in or get blotted out - the total list of names is NOT FIXED; though the list was written before the foundation of the world

As Yogi Berra said "it aint over til it's over"

Sola1517 · Jul 31, 2017

Rubiks said:
Answer the title of this thread and I'll answer your question. deal?

I did.

Anto9us · Jul 31, 2017

Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Is this more hyberbolic language ? -- I mean, we know the Lamb was slain circa 30 AD -- yet the IMAGERY is "slain from the foundation of the world"...

In pure Philosophy, totally apart from anything biblical, the issue of Free Will vs Determinism has raged a lot longer than Calvinism vs Arminianism (which is relatively NEW in the history of the Church)

The ancient church had the issue in the 400's of Pelagius vs Augustine, and DID NOT BUY INTO Augustine's "Double Predestination" -- which Calvin regurgitated over a thousand years later -- Augustine, who was influential enough to get premillennialism knocked out and Amillennialism IN, was NOT influential enough to win the

"Damned or Saved from the get-go with NO BEARING WHATSOEVER on what a person does/believes"

And so the so-called "Semi-Pelagianism" stood for centuries in the ancient church, at Reformation time, as definitely RCC needed some overhaul, Johnny Calvin getting on the Reformation bandwagon, upchucked the Double Predestination of Augustine back into the picture

Anto9us · Jul 31, 2017

In other words, a core concept of "Calvinism" (in its main feature of a 'Double Predestination' with no regard whatsover what a person does/believes) -- is something the ancient church had ALREADY REJECTED a millennium earlier.

Hammster · Jul 31, 2017

Anto9us said:
IMO, salvation is accomplished for all -- some die never having accepted it -- not all Arminians are OSnAS; probably majority are OSAS

As Arminius worded it, (I'm paraphrasing) it is impossible for a BELIEVER to lose his salvation, but it is possible for a person to CEASE being a believer.

I worried that I was getting off-topic from rubiks' OP, but the more I thought about it, the whole point is a SYNERGY of God and man; like, the Tyre and Sidon people could have/would have repented, in other words - their DOING SOMETHING (repenting) would have meant things are NOT FIXED, just as the OP stated.

The SYNERGY in the blotted out/not blotted out - is that people do something (overcome, take the Mark) to remain in or get blotted out - the total list of names is NOT FIXED; though the list was written before the foundation of the world

As Yogi Berra said "it aint over til it's over"

Is there somewhere in scripture that states that someone will have their name blotted? I see where God assures that overcomes won't have their names blotted. But I'm wanting to know if there's somewhere where it says if you do this, you'll be blotted?

Sola1517 · Jul 31, 2017

Anto9us said:
Is this more hyberbolic language ?

In short, no. The divine plan was always that Jesus would suffer and die for the sins of men.

Anto9us · Jul 31, 2017

Rev 14:9
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Rev 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

.
I would say those that take the Mark get BLOTTED OUT

Anto9us · Jul 31, 2017

Mat 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Hammster · Jul 31, 2017

Anto9us said:
Rev 14:9
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Rev 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

.
I would say those that take the Mark get BLOTTED OUT

You would, but does scripture?

Can Calvinists explain this verse?

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