CAN A BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM GOD AND BECOME AN UNBELIEVER?

[JLB777]

Have you loved your neighbor(s) as yourself?

Always.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

Have you loved your neighbor(s) as yourself?

Do you believe a born again Christian who hates his brother has eternal life?


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15




JLB

 

[bbbbbbb]

Do you believe a born again Christian who hates his brother has eternal life?


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15 JLB

In the parable of the Good Samaritan did any individual who passed the man on the road that day actually hate him? Who was the one who actually loved him?

 

[His student]

You just made my point. JLB

So --- your point was that silly questions only deserve silly answers?

Your doctrine is not from God.

My doctrine and that of God is that those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified.

My doctrine and that of God is that anyone born of God has passed from death to life and will never again come into condemnation.

My doctrine and that of God is that He Who began a good work in me will complete that work.

My doctrine and that of God is that we know Whom we have believed and we are convinced that He is able to keep what I have entrusted to Him against the wrath of God that is coming upon all those who believe not the gospel or add their own works to simple faith in what He has accomplished for us at Calvary as a way to acquire or to deserve to keep salvation in the basic sense.

My doctrine and that of God is that He has saved us for good works but not by good works.

My doctrine and that of God is that the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

So take it up with God. He wrote the book. I'm just the messenger.

 

[His student]

Dontcha think lost people need saving?

Of course.
We didn't deserve what He did for us. But we sure as heck needed it.

Wonder where he was going with this?

We may never know. He seems to be running scared.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Of course.
We didn't deserve what He did for us. But we sure as heck needed it.

We may never know. He seems to be running scared.

lol
He doesn't seem like the type to be running scared.

Anyway, there's one statement of your above that WE ALL agree on and I don't know why it's always posted.

Our good works DO NOT save us.
We are saved by grace, through faith...faith is the instrument of salvation.

But what about AFTER salvation?
Can we agree that God actually requires good works from us? Those that we do in the name of Christ...
Eph. 2:10

 

[His student]

..........But what about AFTER salvation? Can we agree that God actually requires good works from us? Those that we do in the name of Christ...Eph. 2:10

Certainly.
Salvation is a many faceted enterprise that God does in our lives - from the born again cradle through the resurrection and on into eternity. In spite of what some people say - He Who began the good work in us will continue that work until we are conformed to the image of His Son.

But we can never say that those works or even miracles are what saves us in the basic sense of the word.

We have to remember what the Lord told us about the "many" when He comes again who will tell Him of the mighty deeds they had done in life in Christ's name. He was even the "Lord" of their lives. They were quite likely very good people and even pillars in Christendom.

But because they had trusted in those good works to save them, rather than trusting fully on the works of Christ on their behalf to save them - He had never known them.

"Never knew" them is an important distinction made by the Lord in the passage.

It's interesting how many use this very passage to teach loss of salvation when the people in the passage never had salvation in the first place.

It is really interesting that the passage teaches against works justifying anyone before the Lord and for the concept of resting fully on what Jesus did as the only way to be justified before God in the end.

You know? The true gospel rather than "another gospel" - which, however well intended, is in reality no gospel at all in the eyes of God.

And this - in spite of His great love for and His expressed pleasure in those who are obedient to Him and perhaps and hopefully even have great faith to perform miracles in His name.

 

[JLB777]

In the parable of the Good Samaritan did any individual who passed the man on the road that day actually hate him? Who was the one who actually loved him?

Go ahead and post the scripture and let’s discuss it.




JLB

 

[Hammster]

Here is how we are to remain “in Christ”.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

How perfectly do we need to keep His commandments? One commandments is to love one another. I don’t know your intent or your heart, and posts like these make it difficult to discern tone, but the words you use do not come across as loving.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Go ahead and post the scripture and let’s discuss it. JLB

Luke 10:25 And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this and you will live.” 29 But wishing to justify himself, he said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30 Jesus replied and said, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among robbers, and they stripped him and beat him, and went away leaving him half dead. 31 And by chance a priest was going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 Likewise a Levite also, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, who was on a journey, came upon him; and when he saw him, he felt compassion, 34 and came to him and bandaged up his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them; and he put him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 On the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper and said, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I return I will repay you.’ 36 Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers’ hands?” 37 And he said, “The one who showed mercy toward him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do the same.”

 

[JLB777]

One commandments is to love one another. I don’t know your intent or your heart, and posts like these make it difficult to discern tone, but the words you use do not come across as loving.

My post’s are my answer’s to the question of the thread title which asks:

Can a believer fall away and become an unbeliever?


From that perspective I am listing scriptures that teach us people who are “in Christ”, which refers to a believer, can indeed become disconnected from, or separated from Christ, a position of an unbeliever.


IOW, His sheep can indeed become lost.


Reaching out to a lost sheep in order to turn them back to the truth, is the very definition of love.


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death

• and cover a multitude of sins.

Love covers a multitude of sins.

How perfectly do we need to keep His commandments?

I don’t fully understand what you mean by this question.



To me this is asking....


If we just lie some of the time, is that ok?

If we just murder a few people, is that good enough?

If I just commit adultery with my neighbors wife just a few times, is that acceptable?



I don’t think this is what you mean, so please help me to understand more fully what you mean.


If we should break a commandment, which is sin, then we can confess our sin, and be forgiven. 1 John 1:9



JLB

 

[JLB777]

In the parable of the Good Samaritan did any individual who passed the man on the road that day actually hate him? Who was the one who actually loved him?

Do you believe a born again Christian who hates his brother has eternal life?


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15




JLB

 

[JLB777]

Luke 10:25 And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this and you will live.” 29 But wishing to justify himself, he said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30 Jesus replied and said, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among robbers, and they stripped him and beat him, and went away leaving him half dead. 31 And by chance a priest was going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 Likewise a Levite also, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, who was on a journey, came upon him; and when he saw him, he felt compassion, 34 and came to him and bandaged up his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them; and he put him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 On the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper and said, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I return I will repay you.’ 36 Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers’ hands?” 37 And he said, “The one who showed mercy toward him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do the same.”

What’s your point?




JLB

 

[aiki]

Osas: God Saves Us And He Keeps Us. | Christian Forums

Eternally Secure In Christ | Christian Forums

The Scriptural Basis For Osas. | Christian Forums

 

[Hammster]

My post’s are my answer’s to the question of the thread title which asks:

Can a believer fall away and become an unbeliever?


From that perspective I am listing scriptures that teach us people who are “in Christ”, which refers to a believer, can indeed become disconnected from, or separated from Christ, a position of an unbeliever.


IOW, His sheep can indeed become lost.


Reaching out to a lost sheep in order to turn them back to the truth, is the very definition of love.


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death

• and cover a multitude of sins.

Love covers a multitude of sins.






I don’t fully understand what you mean by this question.



To me this is asking....


If we just lie some of the time, is that ok?

If we just murder a few people, is that good enough?

If I just commit adultery with my neighbors wife just a few times, is that acceptable?



I don’t think this is what you mean, so please help me to understand more fully what you mean.


If we should break a commandment, which is sin, then we can confess our sin, and be forgiven. 1 John 1:9



JLB

You quoted 1 John 3:24. Do we need to keep His commandments perfectly? Since you quoted 1:9, I’m guessing that you don’t think we need to. Is that correct?

 

[Hillsage]

Absolutely amazing. It would be funny if it were not so sad.

This confirms my suspicions. You are sorely in need of spending some time meditating on the scriptures.

My post is little else but scripture. Even a fairly new Christian should be able to recognize that.

If you are so new that you aren't familiar with the scriptures I was referencing - you probably ought not to be engaged in a soteriology discussion - except to perhaps ask "serious" questions of others (as opposed to silly ones).

My doctrine and that of God is that anyone born of God has passed from death to life and will never again come into condemnation. (John 5:24)

My doctrine and that of God is that He Who began a good work in me will complete that work. (Philippians 1:6)

My doctrine and that of God is that we know Whom we have believed and we are convinced that He is able to keep what I have entrusted to Him against the wrath of God that is coming upon all those who believe not the gospel or add their own works to simple faith in what He has accomplished for us at Calvary as a way to acquire or to deserve to keep salvation in the basic sense. (2 Timothy 1:12)

My doctrine and that of God is that He has saved us for good works but not by good works. (Ephesians 2:10)

My doctrine and that of God is that the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. (Romans 11:29)

IOW 'my spirit' which was 'born-again by the Holy Spirit and the grace of God, can't do anything to go back and become 'unborn' (John 3:3-6). His good work trumps my bad work all the way from His cross to my glory. (2Cor 5:19) Makes sense to me.

 

[His student]

IOW 'my spirit' which was 'born-again by the Holy Spirit and the grace of God, can't do anything to go back and become 'unborn' (John 3:3-6). His good work trumps my bad work all the way from His cross to my glory. (2Cor 5:19) Makes sense to me.

Absolutely.

What the anti eternal security folks constantly hurl at us is the false charge that we are condoning sin or even that we must all be extremely great sinners in our lives since we teach, as they do, that we do not become "unborn" and born again and again and again and again and again based on our performance at different periods in our lives.

It's a straw man argument of course. We all believe and teach that there is almost every reason in the world to cooperate with the Holy Spirit in the sanctification process.

I say "almost" because getting saved again or staying saved by not sinning isn't one of them.

I doubt that I would be considered a "huge" sinner as these things go. But, truthfully, I have willingly sinned quite a few times over the last 6 decades or so of my relationship with the Lord.

Many of those times, I'm embarrassed to say, have been in the area of my sexual thought life - especially when I was younger than I am now. Time has taken it's toll in this area and it isn't as big a struggle as it once was.

The idea that I would have gone to Hell had I died before confessing and repenting adequately of my blatant sin is an amazing unbiblical concept that has been preached several times very directly by some of these folks who hate the idea of eternal security.

According to the scriptures, "God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus." That's a past tense event that happened when we were saved and sealed with His Holy Spirit.

If the vision of you and I jumping down from the throne and then crawling back in embarrassment some time later again and again and again and again and again over the years of our lives doesn't seem ridiculous to someone - it's only because they have misunderstood the basics of the salvation process.

As the "Bride of Christ" - all those who have been saved are destined to become conformed to the image of God's Son through the process of sanctification. That process does not involve my being divorced and remarried to the Lord dozens of times over the many decades of my life as a believer.

Certainly there are some scriptures that are hard to understand as they relate to our security. But the vision of a bride jumping out of her husband's arms and crawling back into the arms her husband over and over and over and over and over again should really make these folks reevaluate their stance.

But, as we have seen with newbie JLB777, many of them really don't have a good grasp of the scriptures with which to reevaluated false gospels.

 

[Hillsage]

Do you believe a born again Christian who hates his brother has eternal life?

Yes I do, but it is because His eternal life is being hidden in you. "your life is hid with Christ in God". But His eternal life is 'abiding/remaining' in you when you love your brother, for doing whatever hateful evil he did to you? IOW ONLY when Christ's life is being FORMED IN YOU and manifest through you, do YOU have eternal life abiding. But, until then, Jesus still has whatever you come up short of, on the day of judgment!

Written to CHRISTIANS by Paul;

GAL 4:19 My little children (eg "babes IN Christ"), with whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed IN you!

IOW I am always secure 'IN CHRIST' but He isn't always revealed 'IN ME' and my actions when I act like a baby. IOW, most of the church you apparently want to send to hell.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Do you know the difference between 'immortality life' here and now, and 'eternal life' here and now...as well as in the "ages to come"?

ROM 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

 

[His student]

I'm going to print again what I said before in post number 99 because it hasn't been said lately with all of the give and takes that have going back and forth and it bears repeating IMO.

Any honest student of the scriptures will admit that there are scriptures that seem to lead to the conclusion that one can lose their salvation in some instances.

Some who feel that way make any loss of salvation seem to be quite easy and end up preaching what can only be considered a false gospel of “works”.

Conversely – any honest student of the scriptures must also acknowledge those scriptures which seem to lead to the conclusion that one cannot lose their salvation.

So – any honest theologian has to look at both sides of the argument and decide on which side the coin lands.

Every one of the scriptures that seem to teach loss of salvation can be and have been explained in a different way than their undermining eternal security. Some are easier than others to address (as I have shown here in this thread) and some are admittedly much more difficult to “explain away”.

On the other hand – every one of the scriptures that seem to teach eternal security can only be taken one way. I.e. that one simply cannot thwart the plans of God, the author and finisher of our faith, by becoming lost. They can for a time seem not to be sons of God, as with the prodigal son for instance. But if you take the scriptures that teach eternal security at face value – it can only be a temporary condition.

So --- what’s a good theologian to do? Unless one has strong feelings on the matter vis a vis anti-OSAS -- any good systematic theologian has to come down on the side of the preponderance of the evidence. I.e. eternal security is a scriptural fact – like it or not.

 

[Hillsage]

Absolutely.

What the anti eternal security folks constantly hurl at us is the false charge that we are condoning sin or even that we must all be extremely great sinners in our lives since we teach, as they do, that we do not become "unborn" and born again and again and again and again and again based on our performance at different periods in our lives.

We're not condoning sin at all, but we are just suffering the 'temporal death' ('mortality') that it causes us on 'this side' of glory. IOW if we HAVE 100% ETERNAL LIFE, then why do our bodies still DIE?

It's a straw man argument of course. We all believe and teach that there is almost every reason in the world to cooperate with the Holy Spirit in the sanctification process.

I say "almost" because getting saved again or staying saved by not sinning isn't one of them.

For me this is divided by understanding the difference between the salvation of my soul as being subsequent and separate, to being OSAS in my spirit.

Many of those times, I'm embarrassed to say, have been in the area of my sexual thought life - especially when I was younger than I am now. Time has taken it's toll in this area and it isn't as big a struggle as it once was.

And Ive sinned in my 70 years also. But, unlike you, I'm not embarrassed, although I am repentant.

As the "Bride of Christ" - all those who have been saved are destined to become conformed to the image of God's Son through the process of sanctification. That process does not involve my being divorced and remarried to the Lord dozens of times over the many decades of my life as a believer.

Certainly there are some scriptures that are hard to understand as they relate to our security. But the vision of a bride jumping out of her husband's arms and crawling back into the arms her husband over and over and over and over and over again should really make these folks reevaluate their stance.

The only thing I might add to your comment; "As the Bride of Christ" would be this; we are not yet WED. We are in the "betrothed" time of preparation to BECOME the Bride of Christ.