Calvinist Robots

[squint]

People can't disagree all the time. Reflection is a private matter and goes through many instances before it shines on conviction. Every man thinks differently. The Spirit will bring us to truth in His good time.

When the Calvinist position reeks in judgment to our fellow mankind, and the command of scripture is the opposite, friction rightfully remains.

 

[MamaZ]

When the Calvinist position reeks in judgment to our fellow mankind, and the command of scripture is the opposite, friction rightfully remains.

How does the calvanist position reek in judgment to our fellow man? For we are called to love our neighbor as ourselves for we as a people do not know whom God has chosen nor when or where He will call them. It is the word of God where predestination is seen. We also see that it is God who makes covenants with people. All due to Adams sin and bringing death and seperation between man and God. How is God obligated to save any man?

 

[squint]

How does the calvanist position reek in judgment to our fellow man?

By [robotically] deeming those we are commanded to LOVE totally depraved.

Some even go so far as to paint believers with that brush as well.

For we are called to love our neighbor as ourselves

Indeed. Hello. If I love my wife and call her a dirty harlot [totally depraved] would that be love?

for we as a people do not know whom God has chosen nor when or where He will call them. It is the word of God where predestination is seen.

I have no issues with predestination. I do have issues with the Calvin determination. They are not the same.

And are you saying you pretend to love all of your neighbors because you don't know who the elect are???
(not the first time I've heard that from a Calvinist here i.e. 'beloved57')

We also see that it is God who makes covenants with people. All due to Adams sin and bringing death and seperation between man and God. How is God obligated to save any man?

False dilema. There are abundant legitimate alternative answers.

What is and remains strange within 'christianity' general is that we can look at many of the commands and admonishments, and then look at the conclusions of some groups, the one in question here for example, and find direct opposites of simple commands.

You shall love your neighbors as yourself, and you shall measure others as you would be measured, and you shall treat others as you would be treated...

SO CALL THEM TOTALLY DEPRAVED...

sure...

enjoy!

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[DD2008]

When the Calvinist position reeks in judgment to our fellow mankind, and the command of scripture is the opposite, friction rightfully remains.

The calvinist five point position is the best summary of what scripture says as a whole.

Telling the truth is not judging. We're all going to die because we're a fallen species of totally depraved sinners. Is that judgemental? No it's simply revealed truth that has been shown to us by God through the scriptures.

Christ came to save sinners. If humanity was not totally depraved he wouldn't have had to come and save them because they would have been able to choose to save themselves as the Pelagians argued. So since man is dead in sin Christ came and atoned for sin so that by his righteousness the Elect are redeemed and go to be with him in heaven.

 

[Albion]

By [robotically] deeming those we are commanded to LOVE totally depraved.

Ah, I see the problem now. You are thinking that the theological term "total depravity" means the same thing as it would mean in ordinary conversation. It doesn't.

We do speak of "total depravity" in this kind of discussion because that is the traditional term used by Predestinarians, and it is assumed that those reacting against it would at least be familiiar with it, just as debates with Catholics on the "Immacualte Conception," for example, are predicated on the participants knowing whose conception we are talking about and, also, that we are not speaking of the Virgin Birth.

So...this seems to account for the difficulty here. Misunderstanding the term.

If we were all speaking of total depravity as it applies to the subject of the thread, I'm sure there'd be no assuming, wrongly, that the term is an insult, excludes any possibility of love, means that men are savages and completely given to animalistic behavior, or anything like that.

 

[student ad x]

(not the first time I've heard that from a Calvinist here i.e. 'beloved57')
sure...
enjoy!
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'beloved57' is a caricature of a Calvinist

 

[squint]

[/size]
Ah, I see the problem now. You are thinking that the theological term "total depravity" means the same thing as it would mean in ordinary conversation. It doesn't.

Please spare me the 'this sin' is better than 'that sin.'

And for the record I do accept that sin and the workers of iniquity ARE totally depraved. I do not however believe they are my fellow, mankind.

We do speak of "total depravity" in this kind of discussion because that is the traditional term used by Predestinarians, and it is assumed that those reacting against it would at least be familiiar with it, just as debates with Catholics on the "Immacualte Conception," for example, are predicated on the participants knowing whose conception we are talking about and, also, that we are not speaking of the Virgin Birth.

You don't have to speak down to me with that kind of setup Albion. Make yer point. And for the record I do not have the proper concept of the "immacualte conception."

So...this seems to account for the difficulty here. Misunderstanding the term.

Sure.

If we were all speaking of total depravity as it applies to the subject of the thread, I'm sure there'd be no assuming, wrongly, that the term is an insult, excludes any possibility of love, means that men are savages and completely given to animalistic behavior, or anything like that.

Is this the sum of your response?

Why bother? Your ploy in many of our exchanges has been to the false equation of equalling your views to the historical theological intellectual elite and mine not, which of course is baldfaced ridiculous.

IF you can find where 'I' have defined TOTAL DEPRAVITY in the so called ALBION IMPROPER definition, by all means PARADE IT OUT for viewing with comparison to ALBION PROPER...because THAT is the point you appeared to be trying to make.

And if you can't find it, give it up.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Rick,
Here are a couple of interesting verses:

Acts 22:10 "And I [Paul] said, 'What shall I do, Lord?' And the Lord said to me, 'Arise and go on into Damascus; and there you will be told of all that has been appointed for you to do.'

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Who appointed Paul?
Who appointed certain Gentiles to eternal life?


LDG

 

[squint]

'beloved57' is a caricature of a Calvinist

I know many that are like him. A dark comic character for sure. He has committed me to burn alive in fire forever on these boards more times than I can count. And I have not reported him once. Imagine that?

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

'beloved57' is a caricature of a Calvinist

His views are HyperCalvinist, though he doesn't like that term.

HyperCalvinists distance themselves from Calvinism in general. HyperCalvinists usually hold that everyone who says Arminians are saved are lost. So they would include the great majority of Calvinists as lost, too.


LDG

 

[squint]

The calvinist five point position is the best summary of what scripture says as a whole.

Uh, no, it is merely 'Calvins reflections.' I do not bow to other peoples reflections unless I can find the truth in them. Calvins TULIP is NOT a PERFECT REFLECTION I can assure myself.

Telling the truth is not judging.

You mean 'the truth as YOU see it?' You see therein lies the difficulty with 'judgment.' Christians want to judge others, but not themselves with the same brush they use for others.

We're all going to die because we're a fallen species of totally depraved sinners.

Let me give you a very simple analysis of WHY on just a single count TOTAL DEPRAVITY is FALSE.

In the O.T. ALL of Israel were taught BY GOD to be GODS CHILDREN. See Deut. 14:1 or Psalm 82:6 as examples.

NOW, did GOD FATHER total depravity?

Please think about that for a moment or two before responding.

Is that judgemental?

Yes, it is, and FALSELY so. And YES, for the record I will JUDGE your form of judgment false and prove it so with scripture and STILL love all of my fellow mankind including YOU.

Imagine that for an alternative?

No it's simply revealed truth that has been shown to us by God through the scriptures.

No, it's not. It IS your limited reflections on these matters. Nothing more. And those LIMITED REFLECTIONS masquerading as Divine Sovereignty when they ARE SURELY NOT that.

Christ came to save sinners. If humanity was not totally depraved he wouldn't have had to come and save them because they would have been able to choose to save themselves as the Pelagians argued.

Now that is a false dilema if I ever saw one. You do understand that there may be many many other legitimate alternative views on these matters other than yours or that of a past heretical view?

So since man is dead in sin Christ came and atoned for sin so that by his righteousness the Elect are redeemed and go to be with him in heaven.

I often give Romans 11:26-32 as an example of a Divine Sovereign who saves ALL OF ISRAEL, even present tense ENEMIES OF THE GOSPEL.

God may, just MAY be a tad bit more Sovereign than what you or Mr. Calvin imagined. Imagine that?

enjoy!

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[Albion]

Please spare me the 'this sin' is better than 'that sin.'

And for the record I do accept that sin and the workers of iniquity ARE totally depraved. I do not however believe they are my fellow, mankind.



You don't have to speak down to me with that kind of setup Albion. Make yer point. And for the record I do not have the proper concept of the "immacualte conception."



Sure.



Is this the sum of your response?

Well, I realize that I could have launched into a carefully-worded explanation of what Total Depravity is and is not. That, I thought, would risk you thinking that I was talking down to you. I assumed that if you are interested, having been given the necessary heads-up, you'd take a few moments and check into it yourself. I know you can. On the other hand, if merely identifying the problem for you is received by you as a put-down, I might as well have given the explanantion in the first place, huh?

When it is said that one is Totally Depraved it means only that he is a sinner (no, no one is saying that this sin is better than that sin LOL). The natural state of us all at birth is--thanks to being children of Adam and Eve--estranged from God by sin. Fortunately, God has provided a means by which those who come to him are enabled to do that. Christ died for our sins, etc. But at natural birth we have yet to be reborn. We are, therefore, "totally depraved." We are at odds with God who knows no sin, cannot abide sin, is perfect. Salvation means that we can overcome that, but we start off needing a Savior. You know all of this, but the point is that the term refers to our estrangement from God because we are in sin. (The rest of the Calvinist TULIP or "Five Points" explain, from Scripture, what follows from this starting place in our spiritual lives.)

If, therefore, we want to discuss depravity in a theological sense, we do not mix into it any notions of our actions being bestial or chaotic or anyting else along those lines. That immigrant from another part of the world who lives next door, for instance, may well be the nicest person on the block, always being helpful and kind. But in a theological sense, and assuming he is a non-believer, he is not yet part of the family of God, not born again. His works, therefore, are not God-pleasing but rather what theologians of various denominations call works of supererrogation, i.e. superfluous for being done by one who has not been saved in Christ by faith. Of course, that applies to any of us who have yet to receive the Lord.

 

[MamaZ]

By [robotically] deeming those we are commanded to LOVE totally depraved.

Some even go so far as to paint believers with that brush as well.

Even those whom have been predestined were totally depraved. For it was Adam's sin that did this. It all started out good until the fall of mankind.

Indeed. Hello. If I love my wife and call her a dirty harlot [totally depraved] would that be love?

If you love your wife why indeed would you call her a dirty harlot? So to you totally depraved means dirty harlot? Wow quite a statment.


I have no issues with predestination. I do have issues with the Calvin determination. They are not the same.

And are you saying you pretend to love all of your neighbors because you don't know who the elect are???
(not the first time I've heard that from a Calvinist here i.e. 'beloved57')

We are to love even our enemies.. What is so hard about that? We do not know whom God has called and Who God has not called. We do not know the events of anyones life. Do you?

False dilema. There are abundant legitimate alternative answers.

Name them please.


What is and remains strange within 'christianity' general is that we can look at many of the commands and admonishments, and then look at the conclusions of some groups, the one in question here for example, and find direct opposites of simple commands.

You shall love your neighbors as yourself, and you shall measure others as you would be measured, and you shall treat others as you would be treated...

SO CALL THEM TOTALLY DEPRAVED...

sure...

enjoy!

squint

We call them nothing. We speak as the scriptures teach us that man is born Spiritually dead and seperated from God. That in Receiving Christ He makes one alive in Him. We also are taught through scripture that God does the calling and the choosing of those according to His will in those whom He has predestined. Spiritual truth does not need the acceptance of Human Logic to be truth.

 

[Albion]

Uh, no, it is merely 'Calvins reflections.' I do not bow to other peoples reflections unless I can find the truth in them. Calvins TULIP is NOT a PERFECT REFLECTION I can assure myself.

If that is your conclusion, then it is. The fact remains, though, that Calvin's points are not mere musings, as his opponents sometimes say, but are all backed by scripture. The "rub" is, of course, that people interpret that scripture in different ways, but that is no reason for casting insults at others here or feeling that any disagreement over interpretation is an insult.

 

[MamaZ]

So God in all His sovereignty has given up His sovereign power over man by giving man the power to believe or change on their own behalf and come to Christ on their own free will when men in their natural state cannot understand the things of God?

 

[Evergreen48]

Christ came to save sinners. If humanity was not totally depraved he wouldn't have had to come and save them because they would have been able to choose to save themselves as the Pelagians argued. So since man is dead in sin Christ came and atoned for sin so that by his righteousness the Elect are redeemed and go to be with him in heaven.

Genesis 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it - dying thou dost die.' (YLT)

According to the literal translation of Gen. 2:17 'adam (man) was already dying before before he became, as you say, totally depraved.

 

[squint]

Well, I realize that I could have launched into a carefully-worded explanation of what Total Depravity is and is not. That, I thought, would risk you thinking that I was talking down to you. I assumed that if you are interested, having been given the necessary heads-up, you'd take a few moments and check into it yourself.

Uh, actually, your attempted caricature was that 'I' was wrong and improper, and of course I simply asked you to prove it to substantiate your veiled claim [?], which I consider to be a reasonable request in these ventures.

On the other hand, if merely identifying the problem for you is received by you as a put-down, I might as well have given the explanantion in the first place, huh?

EGGsactly!

I have NOT provided a false definition of Calvinism's T that I recall, and asked YOU to find such and show it, or to stop fibbing.

So, is it meat yet?

When it is said that one is Totally Depraved it means only that he is a sinner (no, no one is saying that this sin is better than that sin LOL). The natural state of us all at birth is--thanks to being children of Adam and Eve--estranged from God by sin.

uh, OK. So ESTRANGEMENT = TOTAL DEPRAVITY?

Is this your final answer? And please think carefully if so.

Fortunately, God has provided a means by which those who come to him are enabled to do that. Christ died for our sins, etc. But at natural birth we have yet to be reborn. We are, therefore, "totally depraved." We are at odds with God who knows no sin, cannot abide sin, is perfect. Salvation means that we can overcome that, but we start off needing a Savior. You know all of this, but the point is that the term refers to our estrangement from God because we are in sin. (The rest of the Calvinist TULIP or "Five Points" explain, from Scripture, what follows from this starting place in our spiritual lives.)

If, therefore, we want to discuss depravity in a theological sense, we do not mix into it any notions of our actions being bestial or chaotic or anyting else along those lines.

So, again, to clarify, ESTRANGEMENT from GOD = TOTAL DEPRAVITY?

That immigrant from another part of the world who lives next door, for instance, may well be the nicest person on the block, always being helpful and kind. But in a theological sense, and assuming he is a non-believer, he is not yet part of the family of God, not born again. His works, therefore, are not God-pleasing but rather what theologians of various denominations call works of supererrogation, i.e. superfluous for being done by one who has not been saved in Christ by faith. Of course, that applies to any of us who have yet to receive the Lord.

So, good works, righteousness and LOVE = SUPEREROGATION (more than what is required) and therefore still = TOTAL DEPRAVITY because same = ESTRANGEMENT?

And while you're at it, please tell me how ALL of us live and move and have our being IN HIM (Acts 17:23-29) and we are estranged from OMNIPRESENCE?

enjoy!

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[Albion]

So God in all His sovereignty has given up His sovereign power over man by giving man the power to believe or change on their own behalf and come to Christ on their own free will when men in their natural state cannot understand the things of God?

That essentially sums up the issue, all right!

 

[squint]

If that is your conclusion, then it is. The fact remains, though, that Calvin's points are not mere musings, as his opponents sometimes say, but are all backed by scripture.

For the record NONE of us now or in the past have had A PERFECT REFLECTION as that is NOT available to us in the scriptures per the scriptures. So no, Mr. Calvins reflections are assuredly NOT PERFECT. You are welcome however to bow before that warf.

The "rub" is, of course, that people interpret that scripture in different ways, but that is no reason for casting insults at others here or feeling that any disagreement over interpretation is an insult.

I merely point out that there is what Divine Sovereignty MAY BE as none of us really know what that may be or consist of ENTIRELY...

and THEN there are those who POSE that their reflections of Divine Sovereignty ARE DIVINELY SOVEREIGN to which I say, you have a logical fallacy on yer hands.

enjoy!

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[Evergreen48]

We call them nothing. We speak as the scriptures teach us that man is born Spiritually dead and seperated from God. That in Receiving Christ He makes one alive in Him. We also are taught through scripture that God does the calling and the choosing of those according to His will in those whom He has predestined. Spiritual truth does not need the acceptance of Human Logic to be truth.

How can a dead man receive Christ? As far as being 'born spiritually dead' is concerned, do you not realize that before one can die they first must be alive?