Calvinist Robots

[LittleLambofJesus]

Genesis 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it - dying thou dost die.' (YLT)

According to the literal translation of Gen. 2:17 'adam (man) was already dying before before he became, as you say, totally depraved.

YLT does portray the accurate rendering of "double dying".

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Gene 2:17 And from tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not thou shall eat from him, that in day of thee to eat from him, to die thou shall die".

Genesis 5:5 And they are becoming all of days of Adam which he lives, nine hundreds year and-thirty year and he is dying [1 corin 15:22].

1 Corinthians 15:22 For just as in the adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all shall be being made alive.

 

[squint]

We call them nothing.

Sure. (muffled laughter)

We speak as the scriptures teach us that man is born Spiritually dead and seperated from God.

I don't believe anyone is totally separated from God. It is not logically possible with Omnipresence.

That in Receiving Christ He makes one alive in Him. We also are taught through scripture that God does the calling and the choosing of those according to His will in those whom He has predestined. Spiritual truth does not need the acceptance of Human Logic to be truth.

Ah, another mystery wand waives its hand over the sound mind!

oh well...

 

[Albion]

Uh, actually, your attempted caricature was that 'I' was wrong and improper, and of course I simply asked you to prove it to substantiate your veiled claim [?], which I consider to be a reasonable request in these ventures.

There wasn't any caricature at all, my friend. I merely said that you misunderstood the meaning of the term and would not, I assumed, have taken offense if you'd understood its real meaining. And I didn't say that you need to agree with it, just know the meaning when used by someone else.

So, again, to clarify, ESTRANGEMENT from GOD = TOTAL DEPRAVITY?

Yes.

So, good works, righteousness and LOVE = SUPEREROGATION (more than what is required) and therefore still = TOTAL DEPRAVITY because same = ESTRANGEMENT?

It does appear to me--don't take offense, please--that you may not quite get what is being said. God is perfectly good. He cannot abide or find anything positive in the works of one who is opposed to all that he stands for. OK? You wouldn't take a gift of money from a thief who had stolen it, yet we'd all say that charity is good to do.

And while you're at it, please tell me how ALL of us live and move and have our being IN HIM (Acts 17:23-29) and we are estranged from OMNIPRESENCE?

This has been addressed a number of times, hasn't it? Sin puts a barrier between God and Man, does it not?

 

[Rick Otto]

So, good works, righteousness and LOVE = SUPEREROGATION (more than what is required) and therefore still = TOTAL DEPRAVITY because same = ESTRANGEMENT?

Yes:
Isa 64:6 - But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

And while you're at it, please tell me how ALL of us live and move and have our being IN HIM (Acts 17:23-29) and we are estranged from OMNIPRESENCE?

23: For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24: God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25: Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26: And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27: That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29: Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

In that passage the phrase "offspring of God" is being used in the same sense as the pagan poets used it - we are creations of God. It is not being used in the same sense that other scriptures use the phrase "children of God" which is to say, children by spiritual adoption - a status soteriologicaly above & beyond the existential status of created sentient being.Romans 1:20 deals with this issue of what & how natural/spiritualy unregenerated men know of God:

Rom1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19: Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22: Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23: And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

 

[Albion]

Sure. (muffled laughter)



I don't believe anyone is totally separated from God. It is not logically possible with Omnipresence.



Ah, another mystery wand waives its hand over the sound mind!

oh well...

You don't need to be laughing at us all the time and making such snide comments as these. What does Omnipresence have to do with the reality of Sin? Omnipresence does not have anything to do with approval or disapproval of man's actions or condition.

 

[MamaZ]

Sure. (muffled laughter)

Where have we called anyone anything? Telling people that man is totally depraved is not calling anyone names by a long shot. Those whom are born again are that way not because they willed it but because God has sent His Spirit to live inside of them. Not by anything we have done to deserve this free gift From God given to those Whom He wills. We too were once enemies to the cross.. Walking in slavery to sin until God called us and regenerated us. Man in their natural state cannot walk in obedience to God. We see this with the OT covenant and the law. It took Jesus to fulfill the law and to give Himself as a ransom for many and the regneration of man to have through the power of Christ through the Spirit in them to overcome the sin in their own lives.

I don't believe anyone is totally separated from God. It is not logically possible with Omnipresence.

Even with Gods omnipresence those who are of the natural state do not respond to His Spirit because they do not understand . We see this by the many who still slavery to sin.

Ah, another mystery wand waives its hand over the sound mind!

oh well...

Explain the last sentence to me please. Mystery? Sound mind?

 

[squint]

Explain the last sentence to me please. Mystery? Sound mind?

I have found that if something, some doctrine, some presentation is not logical, but I believe it anyway in the name of the mystery of faith, that I have set aside the sound mind that my Maker provided and probably bought into a roll of balogna.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Evergreen48; How can a dead man receive Christ?

Only by the irresistable action of saving grace, mercifully applied by a loving God.

As far as being 'born spiritually dead' is concerned, do you not realize that before one can die they first must be alive?

Our race experienced spiritual death in Adam.
Those God elected to have mercy on, are born again.

 

[DD2008]

How can a dead man receive Christ? As far as being 'born spiritually dead' is concerned, do you not realize that before one can die they first must be alive?

People are alive in flesh but dead in spirit. When The Lord saves an individual he quickens their spirit to life. This is what is meant by being born again. They are born in spirit.

Much like Lazarus was raised from the dead in body by Christ, the Elect are raised from spiritual death by Christ and are indeed born again.

 

[squint]

You don't need to be laughing at us all the time and making such snide comments as these.

When the exercise of logic is set aside under the guise of a mystery, it more than likely still means it doesn't make any sense. And where you call someone totally depraved AND THEN claim you call them nothing, yes, I am entitled to laugh at that falsehood. Nothing personal. If you can't see it you can't see it and there is more than likely nothing you can do about it.

What does Omnipresence have to do with the reality of Sin?

I simply asked you how estrangement is possible with Omnipresence? Complete estrangement? Partial estrangement. Please feel free to isolate the totally depraved from Omnipresence via AlbionProper.

Omnipresence does not have anything to do with approval or disapproval of man's actions or condition.

False equation. See above.

 

[Rick Otto]

I don't believe anyone is totally separated from God. It is not logically possible with Omnipresence.

The seperation isn't so much about physi- or meta-physical distance.
It's about relational distance.
The closer we get in some ways, the farther apart we get in other ways.

 

[DD2008]

I have found that if something, some doctrine, some presentation is not logical, but I believe it anyway in the name of the mystery of faith, that I have set aside the sound mind that my Maker provided and probably bought into a roll of balogna.

There are some things that can only be discerned by the spirit. So it is best to pray and try to discern in the spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14
[14] The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[MamaZ]

I have found that if something, some doctrine, some presentation is not logical, but I believe it anyway in the name of the mystery of faith, that I have set aside the sound mind that my Maker provided and probably bought into a roll of balogna.

So if spiritual things do not make sense to you in your human logic then it is bologna? And why do you believe this when scripture teaches us that God has taken even the foolish things of the world to confound the wise?

 

[Rick Otto]

My balogna has a first name...

 

[squint]

There wasn't any caricature at all, my friend. I merely said that you misunderstood the meaning of the term

And I asked YOU to prove I misunderstood the term by SHOWING my misunderstanding in writing. And of course there is no such proof available to you other than your guess claiming itself to be my misunderstanding. Elaborate as it may be, a false statement without proof.

and would not, I assumed, have taken offense if you'd understood its real meaining.

I don't recall posing anything false understanding as you continue to claim exists. You are welcome to keep mining in order to avoid being called a false claimer.

It does appear to me--don't take offense, please--that you may not quite get what is being said.

Well, thank you. MAY NOT surely does not mean that I 'have' posed misunderstanding that you can sink yer teeth into now does it?

So for the record, why not just cut to the chase on what IT DOES mean, and leave my cut and dried non-existing MISunderstanding (which does not exist) OFF the table?

God is perfectly good. He cannot abide or find anything positive in the works of one who is opposed to all that he stands for. OK?

You might consider that God is Perfect Enough to cover, encompass and eventually eradicate all opposition rather than retract and isolate from same?

You wouldn't take a gift of money from a thief who had stolen it, yet we'd all say that charity is good to do.

IF God came and wiped both the action of the thief and the memory of that action from the face of the earth, then He'd be pretty cool as well eh?

This has been addressed a number of times, hasn't it? Sin puts a barrier between God and Man, does it not?

Sin is an action of thought, word or deed, which same you didn't want on the table to equal TOTAL DEPRAVITY, remember?

I don't really know how you can isolate SIN from TOTAL DEPRAVITY in any case. And I don't think Calvinism does that either. But nice try anyway.

enjoy!

squint

 

[squint]

My balogna has a first name...

TULIP er ah, I mean OSCAR...

 

[Albion]

When the exercise of logic is set aside under the guise of a mystery, it more than likely still means it doesn't make any sense.

Actually, Calvinistic Predestination is logical to a fault. No logic has been set aside in any of this.

And where you call someone totally depraved AND THEN claim you call them nothing, yes, I am entitled to laugh at that falsehood.

No one called anyone else "nothing." Let's just say that an appeal to good manners has fallen on deaf ears here.

I simply asked you how estrangement is possible with Omnipresence?

OK, then the answer, which I thought was implied in the response, is that the two are not connected, meaning that the question is based upon a false premise. Is this where I am "entitled" to--or supposed to--laugh at you?

 

[MamaZ]

Just don't call anyone depraved. LOL

 

[squint]

So if spiritual things do not make sense to you in your human logic then it is bologna?

I will concede to the ascendancy of certain theological understandings to be above logic, but not too often, and particularly NOT if those understandings are detrimental to my unsaved neighbors whom I am commanded to love.

IF logic is used to DENY love, then it is not usable or valid logic to me. Fair or not?

And why do you believe this when scripture teaches us that God has taken even the foolish things of the world to confound the wise?

That is no excuse for belief in really stupid things.

For example, if a certain sect using their mystery of faith wand forbids their leaders to marry, and scriptures warn us that some will do that...what are we to make of the sects use of their mystery wand?

Even mysteries are meant to be 'understood.'

 

[squint]

Actually, Calvinistic Predestination is logical to a fault. No logic has been set aside in any of this.

And I don't find it logical to call someone totally depraved and equating that with loving them. Now that would take a lot of pretzel twisting exercise in logic. I may see that logic as an excuse.

No one called anyone else "nothing." Let's just say that an appeal to good manners has fallen on deaf ears here.

Oh really? You mean calling ALL MANKIND totally depraved in the Calvin logic world means it didn't happen?

By all means get there for me by some means other than the mystery wand.

OK, then the answer, which I thought was implied in the response, is that the two are not connected, meaning that the question is based upon a false premise. Is this where I am "entitled" to--or supposed to--laugh at you?

You just finished not wanting to associate mannerisms or actions to TOTAL DEPRAVITY...yet wanted to drag SIN back into the equation, which same IS mannerisms and actions. So laugh all you want. The field of specifics is just piling up behind you, ever to be available in the future and certainly not avoidable to any other good thinkers.

enjoy!

squint