Calvinist Robots

[chestertonrules]

Because it is a lie, and a lie, if repeated enough, is taken for truth, and it could cause others to stumble. .

How can anything we do change God sovereign's plan for the elect?

How can those chosen by God stumble?

This doesn't sound like Calvinism to me.

 

[squint]

This was answered in post 328.

Uh, no Albion, the predestined DO NOT avoid that fate. And if they DO NOT then it is force of Divine Will.

I've read a few of your posts about these matters, and you appear to have a conglomeration of sorts. A Calvinist with a freewill bent?

 

[chestertonrules]

Then she was not educated in what Calvinists believe, and by extention, neither do you, since that is not a Calvinist position.

Is this the Calvinist position?


Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

 

[squint]

How can anything we do change God sovereign's plan for the elect?

We don't. God took the Hebrews out of Israel by Divine Force of engagements.

How can those chosen by God stumble?

By Gods placement of a spirit of stupor upon them. They will not stumble eternally.

This doesn't sound like Calvinism to me.

I personally hope that God is vastly more Sovereign than what J. Calvin determined.

 

[A New Dawn]

Is this the Calvinist position?


Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

I agree with that for the most part, but I believe it is more that we don't know what God bases it on since there is no pattern that we can see. God doesn't only choose those who already believe in Him, as He has saved some who have never heard the gospel. He doesn't only save the rich, or only save the poor. He doesn't only choose the powerful or only choose the weak. But He does choose people from all walks of life. It is a mystery to us.

 

[chestertonrules]

I agree with that for the most part, but I believe it is more that we don't know what God bases it on since there is no pattern that we can see. God doesn't only choose those who already believe in Him, as He has saved some who have never heard the gospel. He doesn't only save the rich, or only save the poor. He doesn't only choose the powerful or only choose the weak. But He does choose people from all walks of life. It is a mystery to us.

Do you agree that God withholds his grace from some thus assuring their damnation?

 

[chestertonrules]

I personally hope that God is vastly more Sovereign than what J. Calvin determined.

More loving and merciful. I doubt think God's sovereignty is in dispute.

 

[squint]

Please elaborate. I'm not following you.

I have not heard you present that there are an unequal number of UNbelievers frying in hell than Calvinism. So how then is your understanding one whit different? The identical amount of people fry as an end result of either of your positions. 1 + 3 = 4 and 2 + 2 = 4. Also in the case of your presentations, God obviously does with hold His Grace from those being burned alive forever eh?

Neither your position or the Calvinist position know for any certainty who is actually saved in any case. You all however presume YOU are actually saved contrary to what the positions state.

And the saved obviously were predestined to be saved, whether by the will God gave them to exercise 'freely' or the predestined by Gods Will Alone. The man didn't just get here by accident.

God made them all.

 

[squint]

More loving and merciful. I doubt think God's sovereignty is in dispute.

By all means please define for me what that may be, and then please allow me to reach a little further and to then see that in all of that our determinations are all hopefully going to fall vastly short of reality.

 

[squint]

I agree with that for the most part, but I believe it is more that we don't know what God bases it on since there is no pattern that we can see. God doesn't only choose those who already believe in Him, as He has saved some who have never heard the gospel. He doesn't only save the rich, or only save the poor. He doesn't only choose the powerful or only choose the weak. But He does choose people from all walks of life. It is a mystery to us.

IF it is a mystery (which story I don't buy) THEN it is also a mystery to me WHY your extension cannot reach out to encompass all people, at least as a possibility.

 

[A New Dawn]

How can anything we do change God sovereign's plan for the elect?

How can those chosen by God stumble?

This doesn't sound like Calvinism to me.

The elect are not the only people on the face of the earth. From your posts, I'd say you hate Calvinism, and by extension, you hate Calvinists. Would you hate us so much had your grandmother really understood the belief in election, even if she didn't agree? She passed her hate on to you and you pass it on to others. This is the type of stumbling I'm talking about. Causing people to sin when they don't have to. I'd assume that you consider yourself a Christian, and Christians are told to love their enemies. Do you think that the Calvinists here feel the love?

 

[A New Dawn]

IF it is a mystery (which story I don't buy) THEN it is also a mystery to me WHY your extension cannot reach out to encompass all people, at least as a possibility.

It could, if everyone has made some kind of sincere repentance and acceptance of the Lord before they die, but only God knows that. I can't presume to know another's heart, but Christ did say that narrow is the gate and few there be who find it. I'd prefer to believe in a God who will save everyone too, but that is not what the scriptures teach.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Uh, no Albion, the predestined DO NOT avoid that fate. And if they DO NOT then it is force of Divine Will.

I've read a few of your posts about these matters, and you appear to have a conglomeration of sorts. A Calvinist with a freewill bent?

Actually Albion represents Calvinism very well. Its just that the facts of what he presents just don't fit your concept of a Calvinist.

If you don't believe Albion, then look at the historical documents and writings. Many Reformed Calvinists hold to The Westminster Confession. Here are a couple of statements from it:

"...yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. " (III:1)

"God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined to good or evil." (IX:1).

So it would seem, Squint, that your view of Calvinists is not only erroneous but extremely marginalized.


LDG

 

[squint]

It could,

Good. That is a good thing for any to realize. Even to hope for. To pray for. And to believe that prayer would be answered.

if everyone has made some kind of sincere repentance and acceptance of the Lord before they die, but only God knows that.

I believe everyone who loves knows God and is born of God, and that I am hard pressed to say that there has been anyone who has not loved in some way at some time. 1 John 4:7

I can't presume to know another's heart, but Christ did say that narrow is the gate and few there be who find it. I'd prefer to believe in a God who will save everyone too, but that is not what the scriptures teach.

Whoa there and wait a minute. I'm sorry, but you cannot say 'it could' out of one side of your mouth and then deny that 'it could' happen. That does not work.

Any of you who claim to believe in The Divine Sovereign should also accept that God could save everyone or no one IF He wanted to and you could not do anything about it either way. To be logically consistent COULD has to remain COULD.

enjoy!

squint

 

[squint]

Actually Albion represents Calvinism very well. Its just that the facts of what he presents just don't fit your concept of a Calvinist.

I am well enough versed in Calvinism, and considerably more determinist.

If you don't believe Albion, then look at the historical documents and writings. Many Reformed Calvinists hold to The Westminster Confession. Here are a couple of statements from it:

"...yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. " (III:1)

I am also familiar with the Calvin methodologies of slicing and dicing The Will of God.

"God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined to good or evil." (IX:1).

So it would seem, Squint, that your view of Calvinists is not only erroneous but extremely marginalized.

LDG

Yes, I do believe Calvinism attempts to withdraw God entirely from any involvment in making the will of mankind Totally Depraved.

I asked Albion about his 'freewill for mankind' position because I 'thought' I saw that in some of his other posts, and THAT is uncommon amongst Calvinists, and to which you have not addressed for the Calvinist position nor have you addressed for Albion.

Calvinists would do themselves well to understand that God could be just a little more Sovereign than they have determined? To claim Divine Sovereignty and to be the determinant of 'what that consists of' is logically inconsistent i.e. a logical fallacy.

 

[Uphill Battle]

The elect are not converted already. They need to hear the gospel and Jesus told us to go tell

I'm sorry, why do people who are predestined to go to heaven need to hear it from you?

that's a illogical conclusion I cannot reconcile.

PETE's exactly right, UB. It is faith in Christ as one's Savior that saves, not an eternal decree saying "All of you in the group on the right come ahead."

Predestination is often seen as a divine decision about who will be saved (and who will not) but, really, it's a decision about who will receive the faith. Very much of Predestinarian theology will make sense to those who find it incomprehensible if this one fact is kept in mind.

For example, knowing this dispels the question often asked "Why bother to evangelize?" The faith comes in the same way whethe we believe in Predestination or Freewill--from hearing the Gospel. And it dispels that other question, "Why be good if it doesn't matter?" Once one becomes a believer in Christ and trusts his promises, he cannot be disinterested in living as Christ would have us live and taught us to live. That would only show us that this person doesn't have the faith in the first place, much like the lukewarm who adhere to any cause, religious or otherwise, who say with their lips that they are followers or advocates but by their actions demonstrate no commitment.

I'm sorry, but I still can't reconcile the mentality.

In some ways, I suppose.

But because Catholics believe that all men are able to go to heaven by cooperating with God's grace, I think that our insistence on this matter is different.

We believe that every person we meet is a candidate for heaven. God has not put black dots on some of us which brand us as rejects.

I'm not talking about the difference in theology, but you questioned why they get defensive. Same reason you do. Someone is opposing what they hold as true.

 

[A New Dawn]

Whoa there and wait a minute. I'm sorry, but you cannot say 'it could' out of one side of your mouth and then deny that 'it could' happen. That does not work.

Any of you who claim to believe in The Divine Sovereign should also accept that God could save everyone or no one IF He wanted to and you could not do anything about it either way. To be logically consistent COULD has to remain COULD.

enjoy!

squint

I am just indicating what the scriptures say. Yes, I believe that God can do anything, however, He limited himself when he stated that one is saved through faith in Christ. He limited himself when he declared that one's sins must be covered by the blood of a pure sacrifice in order to be saved. It is God, not I (or not Calvinists), who set the parameters.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

I have not deliberately misrepresented Calvinism.

Its obvious that you have misrepresented Calvinists - and I'm not the only one who is telling you that. You are indeed wise in your own eyes.


LDG

 

[chestertonrules]

I have not heard you present that there are an unequal number of UNbelievers frying in hell than Calvinism. So how then is your understanding one whit different? The identical amount of people fry as an end result of either of your positions. 1 + 3 = 4 and 2 + 2 = 4. Also in the case of your presentations, God obviously does with hold His Grace from those being burned alive forever eh?

Neither your position or the Calvinist position know for any certainty who is actually saved in any case. You all however presume YOU are actually saved contrary to what the positions state.

And the saved obviously were predestined to be saved, whether by the will God gave them to exercise 'freely' or the predestined by Gods Will Alone. The man didn't just get here by accident.

God made them all.

I don't claim to know who will fail to attain heaven. Catholics don't assume our salvation is accomplished. We have the virtue of hope.

The key difference though is that I believe God loves all of us and wants us to choose him. He does not withhold his grace from some thus assuring their salvation.

 

[A New Dawn]

I'm sorry, why do people who are predestined to go to heaven need to hear it from you?

that's a illogical conclusion I cannot reconcile.

They don't need to hear it from 'us', but they need to hear it because God said that salvation is predicated on belief in Christ as savior, and that preaching the word was His method of choice for getting the message out. I'm not seeing what the problem is here.