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Calvinist Robots

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Thekla

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It seems to be as much a rhetorical device (a parallel comparative). This is not to imply universalism, but denotes and amplifies two "inheritances". We have all inherited mortality (but not guilt :D) through birth into a fallen world - Adam. Christ is our spiritual forebearer (firstborn from the dead/mortality) and offers the potential for all to receive this inheritance as potential in baptism (restoration) and the spiritual life.

The fall as the origin of death and therefore sin (Romans 5:12) indicates mortality as the origin of sin; the Resurrection releases us from mortality. This restoration is for all/offered to all, and more specifically is being activated (in varying degrees) in believers.
 
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Uphill Battle

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question: Someone is "predestined." They don't believe in predestination. Possible? or are only those who accept predestination, predestined? (IOW, those that are the elect would believe they are predestined, any who wouldn't, can't be.)

because if it's the former, instead of the latter, It's of absolutely no signifigance whatsoever.

If knowing or not knowing you are predestined has nothing to do with it, It's all rather moot.
 
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A New Dawn

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question: Someone is "predestined." They don't believe in predestination. Possible? or are only those who accept predestination, predestined? (IOW, those that are the elect would believe they are predestined, any who wouldn't, can't be.)

because if it's the former, instead of the latter, It's of absolutely no signifigance whatsoever.

If knowing or not knowing you are predestined has nothing to do with it, It's all rather moot.

One can be predestined and not believe in predestination. There is nowhere in the Bible that states specific beliefs regarding soteriology are required for salvation. :)
 
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Evergreen48

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A question or two:

A New Dawn said:
What we know to be true is that Adam is man's representative to God, as the Bible is clear about that.
What do you mean by 'Adam is man's representative to God'?

The Bible is also clear that only those who believe will be saved.

Only those who believe what?
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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There are multiple kinds of Calvinism. My problems are with the traditional 5 points Calvinism.

The first problem is you claim to distinguish between Calvinists, but its obvious from your posts that you don't. Second, is that the Hodges and Kuiper ARE traditional 5 point Calvinists.

As you can see from these boards, there are many who defend the most extreme positions.

Its easy to see those you have disparaged are not "extreme" Calvinists. ArticFox is one you have disparaged repeatedly, and yet he is one of the more honest and irenic posters on CF.


These views are damaging and should be exposed and refuted.

I would think you would be on my side for this!:)

I'm not on the side of anyone who wants to stir up dissension, falsely represent others and slander them. Don't ignore the ethical dimension which has a far greater impact than most people think. James said that peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness. Sowing dissension has the opposite effect.

James also said that the wisdom from above is peace-loving, considerate, sincere, and impartial. Paul said that one's conversation should always be full of grace and seasoned with salt when answering everyone.


LDG
 
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chestertonrules

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What we know to be true is that Adam is man's representative to God, as the Bible is clear about that. The Bible is also clear that only those who believe will be saved. So, knowing those two things, we know that the first all is a concrete definition of everyone, the second all's context is that of believers. Two different meanings from two different contexts.

And we happen to know that from reading the Bible, knowing what the context is, knowing what the words (really) mean, and absolutely nothing to do with anything Calvin said, unless it was coincidental.


The bible is clear. All died in Adam. Adam chose human pride over submission to God's will.

The bible is clear. Through Christ, we are once again made alive. Through Christ we are led to JUSTIFICATION and LIFE.


Do you agree that Jesus changed our relationship with God?
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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question: Someone is "predestined." They don't believe in predestination. Possible?

Yes.

or are only those who accept predestination, predestined? (IOW, those that are the elect would believe they are predestined, any who wouldn't, can't be.)

No.

because if it's the former, instead of the latter, It's of absolutely no signifigance whatsoever.

If knowing or not knowing you are predestined has nothing to do with it, It's all rather moot.

Its not moot. "Predestined" is found in Scripture and explicitly connected to other concepts:

Rom 8:29-30
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.



LDG
 
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chestertonrules

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The first problem is you claim to distinguish between Calvinists, but its obvious from your posts that you don't. Second, is that the Hodges and Kuiper ARE traditional 5 point Calvinists.

I disagree.



Its easy to see those you have disparaged are not "extreme" Calvinists. ArticFox is one you have disparaged repeatedly, and yet he is one of the more honest and irenic posters on CF.

Disparaged, or disagreed with? Must I agree with everyone?






I'm not on the side of anyone who wants to stir up dissension, falsely represent others and slander them. Don't ignore the ethical dimension which has a far greater impact than most people think. James said that peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness. Sowing dissension has the opposite effect.

James also said that justification comes through works, and not faith alone, yet Calvinists reject this. Should this error be whitewashed, or amplified and explored?


James also said that the wisdom from above is peace-loving, considerate, sincere, and impartial. Paul said that one's conversation should always be full of grace and seasoned with salt when answering everyone.

Here's how James ends his epistle:

19My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

And Paul has this insightful comment:

11They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain. 12Even one of their own prophets has said, "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons." 13This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith.


I'm not claiming that this applies to you. It could equally be applied to me if you feel I am wrong.

The point is, we are not to stand by and let falsehoods or dangerous doctrines be promulgated.

We should fight for the truth to the best of our ability.

Do you disagree?
 
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chestertonrules

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question: Someone is "predestined." They don't believe in predestination. Possible? or are only those who accept predestination, predestined? (IOW, those that are the elect would believe they are predestined, any who wouldn't, can't be.)

because if it's the former, instead of the latter, It's of absolutely no signifigance whatsoever.

If knowing or not knowing you are predestined has nothing to do with it, It's all rather moot.


Exactly!

Why are Calvinists so defensive? Why bother?
 
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chestertonrules

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Yeah, this is kinda like my (admittedly silly, but real) question; do any non-elect believe in election ?


My mom thought she was non elect for much of her life.

I have personal knowledge of the evil of Calvinist dogma.
 
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chestertonrules

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this could be why


Why does my opinion matter to you?

I have confidence that your doctrine is wrong and destructive.

If you are right, why would this bother you?

It would only bother you if you doubt your doctrine.



Do you agree?
 
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chestertonrules

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It does not bother me personally, but others may actually read such misinformed opinions and take them as fact.

Judging by the things many non calvinists present, it happens way to often to allow it to go unchallenged


My question is: why does it bother you what anyone says or thinks if our eternal destiny is out of our control?

What's the worst that could happen?
 
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chestertonrules

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God uses men to accomplish His plan

He leads, I follow


You didn't answer my question:

My question is: why does it bother you what anyone says or thinks if our eternal destiny is out of our control?
 
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chestertonrules

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Our destiny may be determined but our actions in this life will be judged. I choose to try and be obedient. If I do not deliver the message, I will have to answer for that, and God will still get it to those that need to hear it


My question is: why does it bother you what anyone says or thinks if our eternal destiny is out of our control?

Does God require you to post on the internet?;)
 
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ArcticFox

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It does not bother me personally, but others may actually read such misinformed opinions and take them as fact.

Judging by the things many non calvinists present, it happens way to often to allow it to go unchallenged

Not entirely related to your post PETE, but, I wanted to mention that if anyone is so vehemently opposed and angry over a belief system, chances are, they feel personally challenged by it.

Why get so wound up over a system of belief just because it's wrong? There are lots of wrong belief systems, more than we have time to fight... Why pick one in particular to dwell on and "hate?" My guess is anyone who does so, does so precisely because there is fear... fear that such a system may, in fact, be accurate.

Whether it's protestants who are hating on the RCC, cessationists hating on Charismatics, or Arminians hating on Calvinism, I think it all stems from a need to control what we fear will control us if we don't get it first.

I'm with John Piper, who emphasizes that it may take people years to come to believe these "truths" as I see them, or they may never arrive there in life on this earth. Although I believe very deeply in the basic truths behind the 5-points of Calvinism (without obsessing over the particulars of exactly how we define them to a T), I spent most of my Christian life believing in something else. I believed what most of the people I meet believe... that God gave us free will, that we freely choose whether to come to him or not, and then whether to follow him or not. I believed that salvation wasn't just the synergy of God and man working together in a sense, but relied mainly on the decision of the individual man or woman, whether he or she would choose to believe.

I believed like that for years. When I believed like that, I didn't run around saying "Man is sovereign!" or any such thing. I prayed, I talked about God's sovereignty, I read the Bible, I went to church, I worshipped with others, and all that good stuff. It's not like being an Arminian (believer in the necessity of man's own decision to come to God) made me a heathen or anything. Most of the people I met then and still meet today believe that.

However, it was a chance encounter with a friend that challenged me. What he said, although brief and limited, really seemed just so far out there that it couldn't be right. "What!?!? God chooses us? God changes our hearts, THEN we believe? Man, you got that backwards, dude!"

Sure enough, after a few months of searching through the Bible, interacting with other believers, and finally, looking at my own heart, I came to realize what I believe is the truth; that apart from Jesus, we can do nothing. That, apart from the Holy Spirit coming into my heart and converting it from stone to flesh, I can't see and recognize Christ's beauty and acknowledge him as Lord. Only when God raises me from spiritual death can I do so.

I came to LOVE the book of Ephesians. I try not to play favoritism with parts of the Bible, since that is often what twists our doctrine and forms extremism, but I just can't get around how succinctly I feel the book of Ephesians tells us the story of who we are before and after Christ, and even a little bit of that moment when he comes to us for the first time.

Ephesians is, IMO, the most "Calvinist" book in the Bible. Other than perhaps the gospel of John and Romans, no other book is so clear to me about the truths of what has come to be known as the "5-points of Calvinism" or TULIP.

I'll be straight with you all. I've never read Calvin's writings. I don't even care to, and I probably never will. I know precious little about the man, and that doesn't bother me in the least. I appreciate the work he's done, at least I think I do, but I don't like to make any non-biblical figure a central person in my "religious life." I don't want to put any mere man on a pedestal of any sort, and I don't want to make a man a central figure in my mind when I talk about my Christian faith... except Jesus. With an exception for men like Paul and Peter, who are key figures from the Bible and helped write it, I try not to "centralize" any man in my doctrines.

So if you don't like Calvin, I don't care. If you can't stand a particular church, I guess it doesn't matter much to me.

What matters to me is that you seek the glory of God above any other thing's glory, and that we emphasize God's sovereignty and glory to the point that it's Biblical; no more, and no less. Though when it comes to his glory, it's hard to imagine emphasizing it too much... that just may not be possible.

---

So next time you meet a "Calvinist" who takes the sovereignty a bit further than the Bible makes clear, cut him a little slack. Don't demonize him, don't label his beliefs as "evil," don't try to cast demons out of him. Try to recognize where he's going and what he's trying to do... Most likely, he's trying to fight a system of belief that he thinks robs God of the glory he is due, that doesn't ascribe to God the fullness of his sovereignty, and thus, doesn't ascribe the fullness of his glory. Even if he takes it a bit too far, he's got some very, very good intentions.

Oh... and remember... although we all fall short of this, NEVER forget:

2 Timothy 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.

Lord knows I've been there, I've been that contentious man who throws wood on the kindling fire... sometimes gasoline. It's hard to do in a theology debate forum, but if someone comes in with guns blazin' and talking trash about the other guy, Arminian or Calvinist it doesn't matter, he should be promptly ignored.

Even if it's me... ignore me. Don't feed the trolls they say, right? Well, don't feed the contentious man.
 
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