Calvinist Robots

[chestertonrules]

Not entirely related to your post PETE, but, I wanted to mention that if anyone is so vehemently opposed and angry over a belief system, chances are, they feel personally challenged by it.

Why get so wound up over a system of belief just because it's wrong?

Because it hurts people and leads people away from God.

Is this a good reason?

There are lots of wrong belief systems, more than we have time to fight... Why pick one in particular to dwell on and "hate?" My guess is anyone who does so, does so precisely because there is fear... fear that such a system may, in fact, be accurate.

I hate lies and hell. Do you?

Whether it's protestants who are hating on the RCC, cessationists hating on Charismatics, or Arminians hating on Calvinism, I think it all stems from a need to control what we fear will control us if we don't get it first.

Calvinism teaches that we have no control. I don't think this is healthy or Christian.

Sure enough, after a few months of searching through the Bible, interacting with other believers, and finally, looking at my own heart, I came to realize what I believe is the truth; that apart from Jesus, we can do nothing. That, apart from the Holy Spirit coming into my heart and converting it from stone to flesh, I can't see and recognize Christ's beauty and acknowledge him as Lord. Only when God raises me from spiritual death can I do so.

All of this is true and beautiful. What is not true or beautiful is the belief that God withholds his grace from some people, while granting it to others. The cosmic lottery. The bible is clear that God loves the world, that Christ draws all people to himself, that the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, and that as all die in Adam, all will be made alive in Christ.

I came to LOVE the book of Ephesians. I try not to play favoritism with parts of the Bible, since that is often what twists our doctrine and forms extremism, but I just can't get around how succinctly I feel the book of Ephesians tells us the story of who we are before and after Christ, and even a little bit of that moment when he comes to us for the first time.

You clearly reject much of the bible. You feel some words are truth, and others must be conformed to this truth.

What matters to me is that you seek the glory of God above any other thing's glory, and that we emphasize God's sovereignty and glory to the point that it's Biblical; no more, and no less. Though when it comes to his glory, it's hard to imagine emphasizing it too much... that just may not be possible.

Why would we do that if we aren't chosen by God? God either loves all men or he doesn't. If he doesn't, why bother with any of this?

So next time you meet a "Calvinist" who takes the sovereignty a bit further than the Bible makes clear, cut him a little slack. Don't demonize him, don't label his beliefs as "evil," don't try to cast demons out of him. Try to recognize where he's going and what he's trying to do...

I know exactly what he is trying to do.

He's trying to say, I'm in, and if you don't get it, you're out.

It is not biblical.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

I'm not claiming that this applies to you. It could equally be applied to me if you feel I am wrong.

The point is, we are not to stand by and let falsehoods or dangerous doctrines be promulgated.

We should fight for the truth to the best of our ability.

Do you disagree?

Fighting for the truth doesn't cancel out the ethical dimension.

Scripture is very clear on how we should treat others. No one can claim they "love" someone when they are obviously disrespectful and insulting. It defies the definition and act of love. And it simply makes a mockery of what the Bible says about treating people with gentleness and respect.

And when one deliberately misrepresents another view, it makes a mockery of truth. Why twist Calvinism into something that no one really holds? Are you afraid of what Calvinists ACTUALLY believe? Being wise in one's own eyes is underscored by the rejection of undisputable and basic facts about Calvinism. Its not convincing to anyone - instead people see that the emperor has no clothes.


LDG

 

[ArcticFox]

Because it hurts people and leads people away from God.

Is this a good reason?



I hate lies and hell. Do you?



Calvinism teaches that we have no control. I don't think this is healthy or Christian.









All of this is true and beautiful. What is not true or beautiful is the belief that God withholds his grace from some people, while granting it to others. The cosmic lottery. The bible is clear that God loves the world, that Christ draws all people to himself, that the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, and that as all die in Adam, all will be made alive in Christ.




You clearly reject much of the bible. You feel some words are truth, and others must be conformed to this truth.





Why would we do that if we aren't chosen by God? God either loves all men or he doesn't. If he doesn't, why bother with any of this?





I know exactly what he is trying to do.

He's trying to say, I'm in, and if you don't get it, you're out.

It is not biblical.

Chesterton I want to clarify again that I won't be responding to your posts.

You're a contentious person with a mean-streak against people who believe differently from you. Discussions with you will not and cannot prove fruitful in the least, and your insistence on your own improper perspective of others' beliefs will prevent you from ever having a meaningful discussion, so long as you do it.

You will undoubtedly frustrate quite a lot of people, but your brash attitude and refusal to correct your own misconceptions will win you no one.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Our destiny may be determined but our actions in this life will be judged. I choose to try and be obedient. If I do not deliver the message, I will have to answer for that, and God will still get it to those that need to hear it

why do people who are going to go, or not go, to heaven already selected, need to hear it?

Exactly!

Why are Calvinists so defensive? Why bother?

Well, to be fair, probably the same reason Catholics are.

 

[PETE_]

why do people who are going to go, or not go, to heaven already selected, need to hear it?

Well, to be fair, probably the same reason Catholics are.

The elect are not converted already. They need to hear the gospel and Jesus told us to go tell

 

[JacobHall86]

LOLS at a catholic telling someone that what they believe not being Biblical.

 

[Albion]

why do people who are going to go, or not go, to heaven already selected, need to hear it?

PETE's exactly right, UB. It is faith in Christ as one's Savior that saves, not an eternal decree saying "All of you in the group on the right come ahead."

Predestination is often seen as a divine decision about who will be saved (and who will not) but, really, it's a decision about who will receive the faith. Very much of Predestinarian theology will make sense to those who find it incomprehensible if this one fact is kept in mind.

For example, knowing this dispels the question often asked "Why bother to evangelize?" The faith comes in the same way whethe we believe in Predestination or Freewill--from hearing the Gospel. And it dispels that other question, "Why be good if it doesn't matter?" Once one becomes a believer in Christ and trusts his promises, he cannot be disinterested in living as Christ would have us live and taught us to live. That would only show us that this person doesn't have the faith in the first place, much like the lukewarm who adhere to any cause, religious or otherwise, who say with their lips that they are followers or advocates but by their actions demonstrate no commitment.

 

[squint]

One can be predestined and not believe in predestination. There is nowhere in the Bible that states specific beliefs regarding soteriology are required for salvation.

It's not too often I see a brilliant observation on these threads.

Brilliant!

 

[squint]

Calvinist do not teach that God forces love and repentance

There is brilliant, and then there is the opposite of brilliant.

Please, do tell how the predestined AVOID that fate? And when you conclude they do not, then tell me that is not force of achievement by God.

 

[Albion]

Please, do tell how the predestined AVOID that fate? And when you conclude they do not, then tell me that is not force of achievement by God.

This was answered in post 328.

 

[A New Dawn]

A question or two:


What do you mean by 'Adam is man's representative to God'?

Because of one man, sin and death came to us all.

Only those who believe what?

Only those that believe that Jesus is their Lord and Savior.

 

[chestertonrules]

And when one deliberately misrepresents another view, it makes a mockery of truth. Why twist Calvinism into something that no one really holds? Are you afraid of what Calvinists ACTUALLY believe? Being wise in one's own eyes is underscored by the rejection of undisputable and basic facts about Calvinism. Its not convincing to anyone - instead people see that the emperor has no clothes.


LDG

I have not deliberately misrepresented Calvinism. Many are defending the very views I am attacking. I think the case in point is that I concede that some of the Calvinists you quoted didn't sound Calvinistic to me. I'm not denying that there is a spectrum of beliefs among Calvinists. I'm attacking the views among some Calvinists(many on display in this thread and others) that God doesn't love all men, that God's grace is withheld from some men, and that God chooses who will go to heaven and hell with no regard for our actions, thoughts, or words.

 

[chestertonrules]

why do people who are going to go, or not go, to heaven already selected, need to hear it?

Well, to be fair, probably the same reason Catholics are.

In some ways, I suppose.

But because Catholics believe that all men are able to go to heaven by cooperating with God's grace, I think that our insistence on this matter is different.

We believe that every person we meet is a candidate for heaven. God has not put black dots on some of us which brand us as rejects.

 

[A New Dawn]

My mom thought she was non elect for much of her life.

I have personal knowledge of the evil of Calvinist dogma.

Then she was not educated in what Calvinists believe, and by extention, neither do you, since that is not a Calvinist position.

 

[chestertonrules]

Predestination is often seen as a divine decision about who will be saved (and who will not) but, really, it's a decision about who will receive the faith..

What's the difference?

 

[MamaZ]

It is not our actions thoughts or words that give the gate way to heaven. It is only through the One Who He Chose and that is Christ the risen King. One has to be In Christ to have salvation. Christ has to be in them in order for salvation. Relationship and not works..

 

[A New Dawn]

My question is: why does it bother you what anyone says or thinks if our eternal destiny is out of our control?

Because it is a lie, and a lie, if repeated enough, is taken for truth, and it could cause others to stumble. You believed what your grandmother told you, so obviously she has caused you to believe a lie and you come here promoting it, causing others to stumble, as you have stumbled.

 

[squint]

I have not deliberately misrepresented Calvinism. Many are defending the very views I am attacking. I think the case in point is that I concede that some of the Calvinists you quoted didn't sound Calvinistic to me. I'm not denying that there is a spectrum of beliefs among Calvinists. I'm attacking the views among some Calvinists(many on display in this thread and others) that God doesn't love all men, that God's grace is withheld from some men, and that God chooses who will go to heaven and hell with no regard for our actions, thoughts, or words.

Too funny. You do realize you present almost identically, the same things?

 

[chestertonrules]

This was answered in post 328.

You post in 328 does not answer the question.

 

[chestertonrules]

Too funny. You do realize you present almost identically, the same things?

Please elaborate. I'm not following you.