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Actually if you want to be technical, none of the five points are "calvins" doctrine they are Augustines. But yeah there is definately some muddy water..Street Preacher said:And I add, "some mistakenly assumed that all five points are 'calvinist' doctrine, which they are not, nor is it restricted to calvinists only but Christians in general. So while calminians may believe that once you are saved (it's up to you to grab the ring of life) you are always saved, the twist is that Calvinism doesn't allow for working with God to bring about salvation, it's up to God and God alone."
As for your questions BT, I think everyone is heated and it's best they sit for a while.
It just doesn't seem logical to me, God casts His vote for you, the devil casts his against you and you get to choose? No matter which way you slice it, it's not Grace, it reminds me of @#$%^&^%$ism.cygnusx1 said:consider the foundational idea of Arminianism ....FREE-WILL , then see how that concept fits with the Yes , Calvinist doctrine of Once saved always saved , and you will see it doesn't fit too well!!
For those who don't think once saved always saved is Calvinist doctrine just consider the opposite doctrine (saved conditionally and many that were saved are lost) it can be easily defined as Arminian but it is equally claimed to be Biblical.
Grace is having that choice.... lack of grace would then be???Street Preacher said:It just doesn't seem logical to me, God casts His vote for you, the devil casts his against you and you get to choose? No matter which way you slice it, it's not Grace, it reminds me of @#$%^&^%$ism.
Who's getting upset!!!!!!!!BT said:Easy boys easy.
I'm going to wait until the discussion comes down a few hundred degrees then I'll reask my question. Some people in here are getting too upset.....
Sovereign grace...........mercy instead of hardening ,@@Paul@@ said:Grace is having that choice.... lack of grace would then be???
..........not having that choice.
What kind of grace would lead God to choose one soul over another?? In my eyes that's not grace that's "Natural Selection"...
What "characteristic" makes one person "ELECT" over another?
I can see how this could be a never ending and unfruitful debate.cygnusx1 said:Sovereign grace...........mercy instead of hardening ,
Romans 9
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
that's OK brother , none of us is infallable......BT said:No I don't want you to leave.. I just want to keep it in house is all. I apologize if that was harsh... I'm tired today...no excuse but I'll use it anyway...sorry
OK, now that we know you're a Baptist....cygnusx1 said:Sovereign grace...........mercy instead of hardening ,
Romans 9
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Ok Brother here is the question.Street Preacher said:BT,
Ask 'one' (1) of your questions again and as soon as I can, I'll do my best to answer it. Then we can move onto the next question, etc...sound ok?
SP
you can't be saved until your born again and you can't be born again without being elect. So, you sit in sin until God calls and if you're one the elect then you will be born again.
Before moving into deeper waters , just ask yourself one question......and think long and hard with God's face starring right at you , did God Choose you ?@@Paul@@ said:OK, now that we know you're a Baptist....For the above to be true God must then ELECT people for the opposite??
Do you think it's "possible" that God could "elect" someone knowing that they will "choose" Him at some point in their life - based on creation being a witness to the fact that there is a God?
.......plus the fact that your totally taking Romans 9 out of context. Romans 9 is about Israel's PAST and WHY God choose them and HOW he built their nation... Leaving Romans 9 in context, "Sovereign grace" would be how He called the Apostle Paul AND "hardening" would then be what happened to the nation (because He FOREKNEW they would reject Him anyway) - It's all part of the plan; "All Israel will be saved".
God choose to build a nation by calling out one man to "bless the entire world". However, God could have called out every single person on the planet and said "leave your land", but He didn't... I suppose He choose to call out one man so that He can harden the others?
G3114
makrothumeō
mak-roth-oo-meh'-o
From the same as G3116; to be long spirited, that is, (objectively) forbearing or (subjectively) patient: - bear (suffer) long, be longsuffering, have (long) patience, be patient, patiently endure.
The only proof of any "elect" i can see are those who God foreknew would actually repent....
Well that's a silly question.... First off, if God was starring me in the face i'd be dead.. Moses could only look at the "back parts".cygnusx1 said:Before moving into deeper waters , just ask yourself one question......and think long and hard with God's face starring right at you , did God Choose you ?
Do you think it's "possible" that God could "CHOOSE" someone knowing that they will "choose" Him at some point in their life - based on creation being a witness to the fact that there is a God so that no one is without excuse in THAT day?
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