• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Calvinism, explained.

Status
Not open for further replies.

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,022
✟117,598.00
Faith
Christian
God has neither beginning nor ending, but His finite creation does. The imperfect passes away and is replaced by the perfect.

The world that then was, destroyed in the flood. We live in another world now, not the world before the flood. And we look forward to a new earth and a new heavens wherein dwells righteousness, so no Satan, no evil. There is an age to come of which we speak, the age of the resurrection.
And ages to come, and ages that pass.

God ordained before all ages our own salvation and glorification, hence predestination and election from before the beginning of time.
Our glory refers to the Christian's eventual glorification in the age of the resurrection, when we will know fully and be perfected with a glorified body, to be like Him for we shall see Him as He is. And as He is, so shall we be.
To ordain before the ages speaks of Him foreknowing us in love and determining in His will to save us and be joined together forever with Him as one spirit for an eternity of ages to come.

1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Ephesians 2:7
that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:5
which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:

Ephesians 3:9
and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;

Colossians 1:26
the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.

Hebrews 9:26
He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
 
Upvote 0

GillDouglas

Reformed Christian
Dec 21, 2013
1,117
450
USA
Visit site
✟36,925.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
There was no beginning for the Author. All things are before Him without beginning or end.
In my statement beginning applies to story, not God.
Man has a difficult time with no beginning. They desperately want God to have a beginning for His omniscience.
Whom do you refer to when you mention this? I would say there are few to none that would try to claim God has a beginning.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Marvin Knox
Upvote 0

nobdysfool

The original! Accept no substitutes!
Feb 23, 2003
15,018
1,006
Home, except when I'm not....
✟21,146.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
So NF, does this mean God did not have alternate possibilities if His omniscience cannot change? Or, do you believe He had other possibilities and could change?

You clearly have misunderstood, intentionally or otherwise, what Marvin and I have both been saying. Running to ridiculous extremes trying to make it appear that we said things that neither one of us said, EVER. Most people would call that dishonest. So, are you an honest debater?

Is this sure and steadfast? Are there any other possibilities this could be different?

All of the things, actions, thoughts, and decrees of God are sure and steadfast. Only a fool would thing otherwise. Do you thing they are steadfast and sure?

If things could play out in a different way from His eternal omniscience, then He wasn't sure what He knew from eternity.

Apparently in your view God can only think of those things which will come to pass, and cannot think of, conceive of, or consider anything that He does not see happening. Who's limiting God here? God's foreknowledge and Omniscience do not serve as limitations or constraints on His ability to do as seems good to Him, no matter what shape that takes. He is not constrained by His Omniscience, His omniscience and foreknowledge are not his Master, they are His servants, because He is the Master. You would do well to remember that.

You keep saying IF. God's word is not a fairy tale, where things can turn out differently in a given situation. God's word is sure and rock solid. There is no IF with God. Perhaps you think there is an IF in God's salvation of mankind. God could have a grey female donkey with two missing teeth hang upside down and have four rabbits eat rotten worms beneath it in order to save mankind. Was this a possibility in God's plan?

Jesus gave an example of a situation that did not come to pass, but told us in precise detail what would have happened had that situation taken place. That alone knocks a hole in your theory big enough to drive a fleet of 18-wheelers through it. Jesus said IF, so I'm in good company saying what He said. God is able to consider alternatives, whether He chooses them or not.

When you start adding possibilities with God's eternal omniscience, man can dream up a million things God could have done. Man becomes delusional, and his mind starts to wander from God's truth.

Well since the only possibility that Marvin or I brought up was the very one which Jesus used (thereby establishing the validity of it), all this flotsam and jetsam that you have generated in your false accusations, mischaracterizations and flat-out lies about us, is your mess to clean up. You have made false accusations, and tried to make it appear that Marvin and I said things we never said, don't believe, and categorically deny.

You claim that possibilities do not exist with God, yet Jesus used and spoke of one in some detail. Looks like you made a glaring error which you need to correct, or lose even more credibilty.

What's it gonna be?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Marvin Knox
Upvote 0

Rick Otto

The Dude Abides
Nov 19, 2002
34,112
7,406
On The Prairie
✟29,593.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Let's see if you will answer this, so no misrepresentation occurs.

1. Do you believe God's eternal omniscience can change?

2. When did God not know what would happen so that He had to plan it, or have other possibilities?

When did God have other possibilities, before or after His omniscience?
Great questions!
1. I don't think omniscience changes. It wouldn't need to.
I totally get your point, though. Great question. I think it goes to eternity being "now" and time being linear. That deserves a better answer than this.
2. Eternity is when. I think the explanation is more or less naturally forced into a anthropomorphic narrative, which is how we experience life in time/space.
 
Upvote 0

Rick Otto

The Dude Abides
Nov 19, 2002
34,112
7,406
On The Prairie
✟29,593.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
What did Jesus just say? :scratch::scratch: I gave you the quote.

I really didn't intend to insult you this time around.

But all of this rest of your post is so silly and shallow thinking that it's almost beyond belief.

Perhaps you should start with this very simple rudimentary example I'll leave you with and then go away for a while and think about it.

Come back when you've grown up a little.

God knew that Adam and Eve would sin if He planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, told them not to eat of it, and placed the serpent in the garden to tempt them.

Sure enough they looked the tree over, listened to the serpent, and ate of the tree.

They did it because God created the exact paradigm that He knew would produce a certain result - a result that He knew would happen if He created that exact paradigm.

You with me?:scratch:

If God had chosen a different paradigm then what He knew would happen in the first paradigm would not happen.

No Adam and Eve = no fall of mankind.
No tree of the knowledge of good and evil = no fall of mankind.
No serpent to tempt them = no fall of mankind.
No fruit on the tree = no fall of mankind.
No eating of the fruit = no fall of mankind.

You with me?:scratch:

God knows all possibilities and God knows all things that will actually happen.

He knows all things that will actually happen precisely because He is the one who creates the exact paradigm where an exact possibility will become a reality.

You with me?:scratch:

Go away and apply that to the statement from the Lord that I gave you about what the various cities would do in certain circumstances and what they would not do if those circumstances did not exist.

After you've got that straight - apply it as best you can to everyday occurrences and how they might change if there were different paradigms in place.

You with me?:scratch:

God has and always has had a literally infinite number of puzzle pieces to work with. He creates them as He will and He places them as He will.

He does so by sending forth His Word to accomplish what He wills.

All things exist in and through His Word.

".....one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him." 1 Corinthians 8:6

"... from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever." Romans 11:36

"... He is before all things, and in Him all things consist." Colossians 1:17

You with me?:scratch:

God's decree predestines all that the Word does.

"So shall My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." Isaiah 55:11

You with me?:scratch:

Now one last thing and I'll let you go away and think on these very rudimentary things from scripture.

Notice the highlight portions from the Isaiah statement about the decree of God.

Notice that God does not send forth His (omnipresent) Word without a "plan".

He predestines a certain result for everything that His Word does.

And note again that His Word is what does everything.

"In Him we live and move and have our being." Acts 17:28

All really basic stuff, I know. But you seem to be missing some of the basics.

We'll undoubtedly talk again if you work on these things. If you refuse to learn - we will be done.

You with me?:scratch:
Ha! That was great stuff. I loved it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nobdysfool
Upvote 0

EmSw

White Horse Rider
Apr 26, 2014
6,434
718
✟74,044.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Great questions!
1. I don't think omniscience changes. It wouldn't need to.
I totally get your point, though. Great question. I think it goes to eternity being "now" and time being linear. That deserves a better answer than this.
2. Eternity is when. I think the explanation is more or less naturally forced into a anthropomorphic narrative, which is how we experience life in time/space.

I totally agree Rick, God's omniscience does not change. This is why I do not think there are other possibilities of things happening differently. Possibility means there is a chance of being possible. To me, there is absolutely zero chance of anything happening outside of God's omniscience.

Eternity is so far beyond man, it will actually exhaust him. For instance, I don't think anyone has any problem with eternity in the future; man can have light on things not ending, but going on forever. However, if man keeps his thoughts on eternity in the past, it will eventually exhaust him and he has to stop thinking about it. For instance, God has no beginning. If man thinks on that for very long, it becomes nothing to him. Try it for yourself.

One question man has, is from where did God come? How did He have no beginning? Think about it. Man's thoughts are so conditioned to a beginning of things, it puzzles him to contemplate God with no beginning.

This is why I say God didn't start out with a plan for things. This is actually putting God into a time frame with a beginning. This means there was a time God didn't know how things would go, so He had to plan it. In reality, God knew how things would turn out without a beginning point. This becomes difficult to some. They have lived with beginnings so long, it becomes a part of their being; it is not easy to get past that. They keep thinking God had to have some point in time when He decided on things.
 
Upvote 0

Rick Otto

The Dude Abides
Nov 19, 2002
34,112
7,406
On The Prairie
✟29,593.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I totally agree Rick, God's omniscience does not change. This is why I do not think there are other possibilities of things happening differently. Possibility means there is a chance of being possible. To me, there is absolutely zero chance of anything happening outside of God's omniscience.

Eternity is so far beyond man, it will actually exhaust him. For instance, I don't think anyone has any problem with eternity in the future; man can have light on things not ending, but going on forever. However, if man keeps his thoughts on eternity in the past, it will eventually exhaust him and he has to stop thinking about it. For instance, God has no beginning. If man thinks on that for very long, it becomes nothing to him. Try it for yourself.

One question man has, is from where did God come? How did He have no beginning? Think about it. Man's thoughts are so conditioned to a beginning of things, it puzzles him to contemplate God with no beginning.

This is why I say God didn't start out with a plan for things. This is actually putting God into a time frame with a beginning. This means there was a time God didn't know how things would go, so He had to plan it. In reality, God knew how things would turn out without a beginning point. This becomes difficult to some. They have lived with beginnings so long, it becomes a part of their being; it is not easy to get past that. They keep thinking God had to have some point in time when He decided on things.
I get it. (To the degree I can)
That was awesome, thanks.
 
Upvote 0

tulipbee

Worker of the Hive
Apr 27, 2006
2,835
297
✟25,849.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
If God is not willing that all unsaved sinners perish and they still perish that presents a problem. Ephesians 1:11 teaches us that God works all things after the counsel of His own will. So then, if God's will is for something to come to pass (in this case, the salvation of everyone) and it doesn't come to pass then something stopped God from bringing His will to pass. If that could happen we have another problem because Isaiah 14:24,27- teaches us that when God purposes to do something it will come to pass. So, the text shows no one who God purposes to save will ever perish (see Matthew 1:21 also - He shall save His people -not all people - from their sins)
 
Upvote 0

EmSw

White Horse Rider
Apr 26, 2014
6,434
718
✟74,044.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
If man fuss that the egg came before the chicken then were not thinking things right. Its better for them to just believe what the bible say anyway no matter what. Its dumb for arminians to ask us which come first, the chicken or the egg? Course calvinism isn't going to answer that but the arminians wll laugh at our face while they can't answer that themselves. Crooked arminians

The chicken came first.
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,818
✟368,235.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
You clearly have misunderstood, intentionally or otherwise, what Marvin and I have both been saying. Running to ridiculous extremes trying to make it appear that we said things that neither one of us said, EVER. Most people would call that dishonest. So, are you an honest debater?



All of the things, actions, thoughts, and decrees of God are sure and steadfast. Only a fool would thing otherwise. Do you thing they are steadfast and sure?



Apparently in your view God can only think of those things which will come to pass, and cannot think of, conceive of, or consider anything that He does not see happening. Who's limiting God here? God's foreknowledge and Omniscience do not serve as limitations or constraints on His ability to do as seems good to Him, no matter what shape that takes. He is not constrained by His Omniscience, His omniscience and foreknowledge are not his Master, they are His servants, because He is the Master. You would do well to remember that.



Jesus gave an example of a situation that did not come to pass, but told us in precise detail what would have happened had that situation taken place. That alone knocks a hole in your theory big enough to drive a fleet of 18-wheelers through it. Jesus said IF, so I'm in good company saying what He said. God is able to consider alternatives, whether He chooses them or not.



Well since the only possibility that Marvin or I brought up was the very one which Jesus used (thereby establishing the validity of it), all this flotsam and jetsam that you have generated in your false accusations, mischaracterizations and flat-out lies about us, is your mess to clean up. You have made false accusations, and tried to make it appear that Marvin and I said things we never said, don't believe, and categorically deny.

You claim that possibilities do not exist with God, yet Jesus used and spoke of one in some detail. Looks like you made a glaring error which you need to correct, or lose even more credibilty.

What's it gonna be?
Why not include the verses you are talking about? God is Omnicience, we are not.
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,818
✟368,235.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
If God is not willing that all unsaved sinners perish and they still perish that presents a problem. Ephesians 1:11 teaches us that God works all things after the counsel of His own will. So then, if God's will is for something to come to pass (in this case, the salvation of everyone) and it doesn't come to pass then something stopped God from bringing His will to pass. If that could happen we have another problem because Isaiah 14:24,27- teaches us that when God purposes to do something it will come to pass. So, the text shows no one who God purposes to save will ever perish (see Matthew 1:21 also - He shall save His people -not all people - from their sins)
Yes, Jesus will is that none should perish, but all shall have eternal life.

That is something THEY do not consider. The mere words of Christ.
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,818
✟368,235.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I don't get your point, but to try and answer...
There is nothing God doesn't know.
Reality is the realization of God's will. The will exists before the expression of it occurs.
God created tomorrow. How can He not know what He created?
So then satan and 1/3 of the angels rebellion is God's will? As well as Adam coming to sin, God's will?

Then we would be adding 'sin' to the perfect, just will of God. So God condones sin now?
 
Upvote 0

Marvin Knox

Senior Veteran
May 9, 2014
4,291
1,454
✟92,138.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
So then satan and 1/3 of the angels rebellion is God's will? As well as Adam coming to sin, God's will?

Then we would be adding 'sin' to the perfect, just will of God. So God condones sin now?
You make two separate statements here - separated by a gulf as wide as the systematic revelation of the scriptures.

You are right to start with in saying that the "fall" of angels and men is the "will" of God.

But then you add the "perfect, just will of God" segment to what you correctly said before - making it a false statement.

The difference between the permissive and perfect will of God is a basic tenet of the theology of both Calvinists and Arminians.

No matter which group a person falls into - to conflate the two when arguing against the other group is either disingenuous or just lax on the part of the person doing it.

I hope that in your case it is the later. You seem to be an honest person.
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,818
✟368,235.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
You make two separate statements here - separated by a gulf as wide as the systematic revelation of the scriptures.

You are right to start with in saying that the "fall" of angels and men is the "will" of God.

But then you add the "perfect, just will of God" segment to what you correctly said before - making it a false statement.

The difference between the permissive and perfect will of God is a basic tenet of the theology of both Calvinists and Arminians.

No matter which group a person falls into - to conflate the two when arguing against the other group is either disingenuous or just lax on the part of the person doing it.

I hope that in your case it is the later. You seem to be an honest person.
That was not a mistake.

Since God is perfect, just and righteous, He cannot be imperfect, unjust or not righteous.

So if God's will is that sin happened and that sin is against His just, perfect and righteous will. Then I do not see how you can say that God willed sin to take place.

Is that what you are saying? Please explain. I'm serious. This is in total conflict with the nature of God written about in the Bible.
 
Upvote 0

Marvin Knox

Senior Veteran
May 9, 2014
4,291
1,454
✟92,138.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
That was not a mistake.
Since God is perfect, just and righteous, He cannot be imperfect, unjust or not righteous.
So if God's will is that sin happened and that sin is against His just, perfect and righteous will. Then I do not see how you can say that God willed sin to take place.
Is that what you are saying? Please explain. I'm serious. This is in total conflict with the nature of God written about in the Bible.
I seems that you are in conflict with every systematic theology book ever written in this. There are two wills of God and everyone says so no matter be they Calvinist, Arminian, Mormon or Catholic. It is a doctrine that cannot be denied if you believe the scriptures.

Theologians refer to half of the doctrine of two wills as "permissive will". On the other hand - many "non-theologians" just talk in a very general way about God "allowing" things to take place that He would rather not have happen. (Certainly either way of expressing the dilema is an accurate way of saying it.)

But the, so called, theologian is attempting to explain how this condition (the presence of evil) could have ever happened with a good and all powerful God on the throne.

The difference, it seems to me, between Reformed and non-Reformed people is that Reformed people would say that God planned all along to "allow" evil to take place as part of a perfect plan -- and non-Reformed people, on the other hand, would say that God just had evil thrust into His creation without His seeing it coming (or at the least certainly not planning for it to come along), as it were.

Non-Reformed believe that God is "reacting" to sin's occurrence and working toward an end to this awful situation as best He can.

The Reformed believe that God is "proactive" concerning sin rather than "reactive". That is to say that He has always and from the beginning planned that the "end" result will come about "through" the use of sin which He would allow.

His just and perfect decree that there be a perfect world in eternity future where sin will not and indeed cannot exist is decreed to be brought to fruition through evil being allowed to run it's course in this present age.

In the ages to come, He wishes to not only display His grace through salvation. He wishes also (and has always planned) to display His justice and wrath in the ages to come.

How a just and good God could plan to use evil and sin in the process of bringing about a good end and not be, Himself, accused of being evil - is the $64,000 question. Reformed people struggle with the question all the time. How could any compassionate Christian not?

We do know that He does that sort of thing all the time as we read through the scriptures. What men and demons mean for evil - God means for good. I'm sure you know the many prominent examples of this principle from your study of the Word of God.

But it is a question that, it seems, is only asked and agonized over by Reformed and not the non-Reformed.

The reason that that is true is that, it seems to me, only the Reformed considers ALL of the scriptures in his theology rather than just rejecting part of it because it causes him agony of soul.

The bottom line though, as I have said many times, is that the non-Reformed still are faced, when all is said and done, with the same thorny issues as the Reformed. It's just that they put off dealing with them or try to drown them out by whistling through the graveyard by repeating a sort of "free will" mantra over and over again. .

I hope that helps to see the issues. I went to this trouble because you stressed to me that you were being altogether serious in your questions and not just looking to argue.

I sure hope that that's the case and that I won't be disappointed.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: sdowney717
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,818
✟368,235.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I seems that you are in conflict with every systematic theology book ever written in this. There are two wills of God and everyone says so no matter be they Calvinist, Arminian, Mormon or Catholic. It is a doctrine that cannot be denied if you believe the scriptures.

Theologians refer to the doctrine as "permissive will". Many non-theologians just talk in a very general way about God "allowing" things to take place that He would rather not have happen. (Certainly either way of expressing the dilema is an accurate way of saying it.)

But the theologian is attempting to explain how this condition (the presence of evil) could have ever happened with an all powerful God on the throne.

The difference, it seems to me, between Reformed and non-Reformed people is that Reformed people would say that God planned all along to "allow" evil to take place as part of a perfect plan -- and non-Reformed people would say that God just had evil thrust into His creation without His seeing it coming (or at least planning for it to come), as it were.

Non-Reformed believe that God is "reacting" to sin's occurrence and working toward an end to this awful situation as best He can.

The Reformed believe that God is proactive concerning sin rather than reactive. That is to say that He has always and from the beginning planned that the "end" result will come about "through" the use of sin which He would allow.

His just and perfect decree that there be a perfect world in eternity future where sin will not and indeed cannot exist is decreed to be brought to fruition through evil being allowed to run it's course in this present age.

In the ages to come, He wishes to not only display His grace through salvation. He wishes also (and has always planned) to display His justice and wrath in the ages to come.

How a just and good God could plan to use evil and sin in the process of bringing about a good end and not be, Himself, accused of being evil - is the $64,000 question. Reformed people struggle with the question all the time. How could any compassionate Christian not?

But it is question is only asked and agonized over by Reformed and not non-Reformed (it seems like yourself).

The reason that that is true is that, it seems to me, only the Reformed considers ALL of the scriptures in his theology rather than just rejecting part of it because it causes him agony of soul.

The bottom line though, as I have said many times, is that the non-Reformed still are faced with the same thorny issues as the Reformed. It's just that they put off dealing with them or try to drown them out by whistling through the graveyard by repeating a sort of "free will" mantra over and over again. .

I hope that helps to see the issues. I went to this trouble because you stressed to me that you were being altogether serious in your questions and not just looking to argue.

I sure hope that that's the case and that I won't be disappointed.
So what you are saying is Calvinists have come up with another theory about God to explain what their first theory cannot answer.

Reformed theory is like Mormonism. I'm sure there are more layers to this onion.

In this case then, God would have begun to accept satan's sin and then must have just figured that casting satan out onto earth would get the whole, I'm not going to let the sin thingy that happened, happen to get Adam sinning so election could start.

Gots it,. Boy was Calvin a smart one. Smart enough to figure God out when no one did earlier. Why didn't anyone else write about how God got election started by casting satan off to earth as part of the just and righteousness of God?

Why wait for Calvin, in what century?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Marvin Knox

Senior Veteran
May 9, 2014
4,291
1,454
✟92,138.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
So what you are saying is Calvinists have come up with another theory about God to explain what their first theory cannot answer.

Reformed theory is like Mormonism. I'm sure there are more layers to this onion.

In this case then, God would have begun to accept satan's sin and then must have just figured that casting satan out onto earth would get the whole, I'm not going to let the sin thingy that happened, happen to get Adam sinning so election could start.

Gots it,. Boy was Calvin a smart one. Smart enough to figure God out when no one did earlier. Why didn't anyone else write about how God got election started by casting satan off to earth as part of the just and righteousness of God?

Why wait for Calvin, in what century?
No you don't "gots it".

What I get though is that there is no difference between you and all the rest of the argumentative types here.

You pretend in one post to be seeking understanding of the other side's points and intelligent dialog - when all you really want is an open avenue to vent your spleen.

You are no more worthy of a serious reply like the one I gave to you than the vilest participant in this forum.

I've made the mistake of taking you to be a good person before only to be disappointed. It won't happen again.

You seem to be a little lacking in the skills it takes to express yourself. Many here have noticed that before of course and told you so.

I've blamed that lack of ability for my misunderstanding your intent in the past and did it again here.

As I say - I won't be making the same mistake again.

Shame on you.

:wave:
 
  • Like
Reactions: GillDouglas
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,818
✟368,235.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
No you don't "gots it".

What I get though is that there is no difference between you and all the rest of the argumentative types here.

You pretend in one post to be seeking understanding of the other side's points and intelligent dialog - when all you really want is an open avenue to vent your spleen.

You are no more worthy of a serious reply like the one I gave to you than the vilest participant in this forum.

I've made the mistake of taking you to be a good person before only to be disappointed. It won't happen again.

You seem to be a little lacking in the skills it takes to express yourself. Many here have noticed that before of course and told you so.

I've blamed that lack of ability for my misunderstanding your intent in the past and did it again here.

As I say - I won't be making the same mistake again.

Shame on you.

:wave:
Think what you want to think. Free country, but no free will. Maybe it's the nature God created me with.

What I will do is stop waiting for any Calvinist to explain their theory Biblically and I'll just get my answers from Google about them and their beliefs. Much quicker with less foundless theories, hopefully. :)
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,818
✟368,235.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
So, instead of wasting my own time typing out what I believe and have problems with, I'll just share someone else's post that sums it up and saves me some time and new Calvinist theories, seemingly copied from the 5th century.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2013/03/whats-wrong-with-calvinism/

Basic to Arminianism is God’s love. The fundamental conflict between Calvinism and Arminianism is not sovereignty but God’s character. If Calvinism is true, God is the author of sin, evil, innocent suffering and hell. That is to say, if Calvinism is true God is not all-loving and perfectly good. John 3:16 says “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.” “God so loved the world.” Calvinists must explain this as meaning that God loves “all kinds of people,” not everyone. Or that “God loves all people in some ways but only some people [the elect] in all ways.” Arminians believe these interpretations distort the clear message of the Bible about God’s love. If Calvinism is true, John Wesley said, God’s love is “such a love as makes the blood run cold.” It is indistinguishable from hate—for a large portion of humanity created in his own likeness and image.

Let me repeat. The most basic issue is not providence or predestination or the sovereignty of God. The most basic issue is God’s character.

Calvinists commonly argue that God’s love and goodness are somehow “different” than ours. How different can they be and still be meaningful concepts? If God’s love and goodness are compatible with predestining people to hell, then the words mean something other than they say. And if God is not perfectly good, then he is not trustworthy. If he can hate, then he can lie. Why trust Scripture to be a true revelation and guide if God is not good in some way analogous to our best ideas of goodness? If God’s goodness is consistent with predetermining large portions of people to hell, then why might it not be consistent with deceiving us? Our very trust in the Bible as God’s true revelation depends on God being good, trustworthy, one who cannot deceive.

The Calvinist, like the Arminian, approaches Scripture with the assumption that God cannot lie. He or she can trust the Bible to be a true revelation of God if it is inspired by God. The moment the Calvinist says “But God’s goodness is different from ours,” he or she undermines reason to trust the Bible. Of course God’s goodness is different from ours in that it is greater, but that’s not what Calvinists faced with passages such as John 3:16 mean. They mean that God’s goodness, God’s love, is wholly different from our highest and best concepts of them—even as revealed through Jesus Christ.


Another difference between Calvinism and Arminianism lies in Arminians’ view of God’s sovereignty in providence. According to Arminianism, God is now, before the coming of his Kingdom of perfect righteousness, sovereign de jure but not de facto. Jesus and Paul both referred to Satan as the “prince” of this world. According to Calvinism, Satan is God’s instrument; according to Arminianism he is a true enemy of God and presently resisting God’s will. Why God is allowing that is not revealed to us; we are only told that God is being patient. So, according to Arminianism, God limits himself, restrains his power, holds back from controlling everything. Why? For the sake of free will. God wants our freely offered and given love, not love that he has instilled in us without our consent. If Calvinism is true, salvation is a condition, not a relationship. A relationship requires free consent. So, in the interim, between the fall in the garden and the return of Christ in judgment, God is sovereign by right but not exercising that sovereignty over everything. He could but he doesn’t. Thus, sin, evil and innocent suffering, and especially hell, are not God’s antecedent will but God’s consequent will. God’s antecedent will is what he perfectly wanted to happen—including our willing obedience out of love and everlasting fellowship with us. God’s consequent will is what God permits to happen that is contrary to his perfect will. It is consequent to our free choice to rebel against God and push him out of our lives and our world. It is consequent to our free choice to obey Satan and make him “god of this world” rather than obey God.

So, according to Arminianism, God is in charge but not yet in control. God is like the king of an enemy occupied territory and we Christians are like resistance fighters who look forward to the day when our hero, God, will return and take back his full sovereignty over our country. Of course, this is only an analogy. Our God is not banished from this world, but neither is he controlling everything that happens, rendering it certain according to his blueprint. If that were the case, our prayers could make no real difference. If Calvinism is true, God’s will is already being done “on earth” and yet Jesus taught us to pray “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” Calvinism flatly contradicts that prayer.


Of course, Calvinists have their answers to all these objections, but I do not find any of them convincing. They sound forced to me. They say, for example, that our prayers for God’s will to be done are God’s “foreordained means to a foreordained end.” In other words, our prayers are also foreordained and rendered certain by God as a means of having his will done on earth as in heaven. But, at the end of the day, that means our prayers never really change anything.

Calvinists also say that not everything is “God’s will” in the same way. For example, they say that God wishes none had to perish in hell. That’s their interpretation of the verses cited earlier that God is not willing that any should perish but that everyone be saved. God wishes hell were not necessary, but it is—for his full glory. God wills what he wishes he did not have to will.

Perhaps the most troubling answer of Calvinists is the two wills of God—not “antecedent” and “consequent” but “prescriptive” and “decretive.” If Calvinism is true, God decrees that people do what he forbids. God decrees things that violate his prescriptions—commands. God commands “Thou shalt not murder,” but decrees “Thou shalt murder.” Calvin explained in Institutes, and most Calvinists agree, that God does not sin in decreeing that someone sin because God’s intention is good whereas the murderer’s intention is evil. God intends the murder he decrees and renders certain for his glory. The murderer, who could not do otherwise than God decrees, is guilty because his intention is hateful. Not only is this hairsplitting; it also raises the question of the origin of the murderer’s evil intention. If every twist and turn of every thought and intention is under the direct control of God, then even the murderer’s intention cannot escape the all-determining sovereignty of Calvinism’s God. This is why Arminius stated that if Calvinism is true, not only is sin not really sin, but God is the only sinner.

Now let’s turn to Arminianism’s alternative view of God’s predestination. Here I return to the TULIP scheme. Arminians agree that fallen humans are totally depraved in the sense Calvinism means—helpless to do anything truly good, pleasing to God, apart from grace. Arminians, however, believe in prevenient grace—that grace of God that heals the deadly wound of sin and frees the fallen sinner from the bondage of the will to sin and gives him or her ability to exercise a good will toward God. We do not know all the means of prevenient grace, but the preaching of the gospel is one. “Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.” The gospel read or heard imparts prevenient grace so that the person is for the first time freed to repent and trust in God. In other words, Arminians do not believe in “free will” but in “freed will.”

Where is prevenient grace in the Bible? Where is it not in the Bible? It is everywhere assumed, taken for granted, presupposed by Scripture. No one seeks after God and yet many do seek after God. That pattern of “don’t” but “do” is found everywhere in Scripture. It is explained by the concept of prevenient grace. Left to ourselves, apart from a special impartation of grace that convicts and calls, illumines and enables, we would never exercise a good will toward God. But with prevenient grace, we can and some of us do.

Arminians also believe in unconditional election, but we believe it is corporate election—God’s unconditional plan to have a people for himself: Israel and the church. Individual election is conditional. It requires faith which is both a gift of God and a response of the individual. Philippians 2:12-13: “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling for God is at work in you….” (The text and subject of my sermon tomorrow morning) God provides all the ability, the seed of faith, and we freely accept it and use it to repent and trust in God alone. But once we do repent and trust, we see that it was God who made it possible in every way, so we cannot boast. And God foreknew that we would (or wouldn’t) repent and believe. That’s another dimension of God’s election in Arminian theology. Individual election, predestination, is conditional in that we must accept it. If we do, it turns out that God foreknew that we would (Romans 8:29: “Those whom he foreknew he did predestine….”)

One of Calvinism’s main arguments against Arminianism is that if Arminianism is true, God’s salvation is not all of grace. We earn it. Only if election to salvation is absolutely unconditional and grace irresistible, they argue, can it truly be the case that “by grace we are saved through faith.” Only then is salvation a sheer gift. This is, of course, untrue. Think of this analogy. If someone gives you a check for a thousand dollars that saves you from bankruptcy, and all you have to do is endorse the check and deposit it, did you earn part of the money? Was it any less a gift? Absolutely not. What if someone who received such a check that saved him or her from bankruptcy then boasted of having earned part of the gift? People would think him mad or ungrateful or both! A gift that must be freely received is no less a gift.

Now let’s look at Calvinism’s idea of unconditional election. If God is good and could save everyone because election to salvation is absolutely unconditional, why doesn’t he? How can he be truly good if he could but doesn’t? Again, we are back at the fundamental conflict between Calvinism and Arminianism—God’s character.

Arminianism believes that the atonement of Jesus Christ is unlimited in every way. Christ died for everyone; he took the punishment for the sins of all. Does Scripture teach it? Absolutely. 1 Timothy 2:6 says that Christ gave himself as a ransom for everyone. The Greek is clear: it says “all people.” There is no room to interpret this as meaning “all kinds of people.” John Piper, noting the conflict between this verse and limited atonement, which he espouses, claims that Christ did die for even the non-elect. His death affords them many blessings in this life even if not escape from hell in the next. Christ did not die to save them but only to offer them temporal blessings. This is the same as saying he gives the non-elect a little bit of heaven to go to hell in. Piper’s “explanation” is clearly contrary to the plain sense of this Scripture passage which is why many Calvinists cannot accept limited atonement. And yet they cannot explain why Christ would die for those God planned not to save.

But there are other passages that completely undermine limited atonement: Romans 14:15 and 1 Corinthians 8:11. Both passages warn believers against flaunting their freedom in Christ in front of brothers and sisters of weaker conscience because this might cause one for whom Christ died to be “destroyed.” The Greek word translated “destroyed” always only means utterly destroyed; it cannot mean “damaged.” But if Calvinism is correct, a person for whom Christ died cannot be “destroyed” because he or she is one of the elect.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.