Calvinism, explained.

[tulipbee]

That's how it worked on me.
I was 3& 1/2 yrs old. I will never forget the moment I first believed. I heard a Catholic priest say "God made everything because He loves you." And it hit me like a ton of feathers.
Everything in my life suddenly made perfect sense. It was my first epiphany. I was pretty excited, but I had to contain myself because I was "in church". lol

Wonderful ! All the elect do confess Jesus. And, it's clearly show that God gives us a new heart.. He replaces our's of stone so we can believe.

 

[nobdysfool]

I'll leave now after being falsely accused and spit on. Starting a thread not to Explain Calvinism that doesn't answer questions, but is just for 'good ol' boys' club fodder with believers who believe like you do.

That sounds more like someone who just realized that the bar is much higher that they thought. If you want to truly discuss a subject, you cannot start off with hard and fast "you cant convince me otherwise" assumptions. If you want to know what we believe, then you can't complain that "we only want to push our own beliefs" How else can we discuss it if we don't talk about what we believe?

You never wanted to 'discuss' it, only push your own beliefs.

We were quite willing to discuss it, but you were not willing to listen.

I asked too hard of questions. I know.

No, you didn't like the answers you got, that's all.
.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I'll leave now after being falsely accused and spit on. Starting a thread not to Explain Calvinism that doesn't answer questions, but is just for 'good ol' boys' club fodder with believers who believe like you do.

You never wanted to 'discuss' it, only push your own beliefs. I asked too hard of questions. I know.

Who is this addressed to?

I don't think that it could be me. That wouldn't make any sense.

If it was not addressed toward me - then why not just continue to discuss with me as per post #2216 which I mentioned.

Let anyone who wants to chime in as they will. Just ignore the posts.

Or you could put them on ignore until we are done and you won't have to even look at their posts.

I've never found your questions too hard to answer - so long as they take the form of a question you really want answered.

By the way - I doubt very much that this thread would have ended up as one of the longest on record if it was only a bunch of good old boys patting like minded people on their backs. That isn't what I have been reading on this thread for almost half a year now.

 

[ToBeLoved]

That sounds more like someone who just realized that the bar is much higher that they thought. If you want to truly discuss a subject, you cannot start off with hard and fast "you cant convince me otherwise" assumptions. If you want to know what we believe, then you can't complain that "we only want to push our own beliefs" How else can we discuss it if we don't talk about what we believe?
We were quite willing to discuss it, but you were not willing to listen.
No, you didn't like the answers you got, that's all.
.

Really?

Then why have I been asking questions for four pages with no answers. It's great getting no answers and then asking again and being accused. I'll go back and list out the posts.

Starting about

#2041
#2042
#2043
#2044
#2045
#2049
#2050
#2059
#2063
#2066
#2068
#2071
#2073
#2074
#2076
#2211
#2213
#2215
#2220

 

[ToBeLoved]

Who is this addressed to?

I don't think that it could be me. That wouldn't make any sense.

If it was not addressed toward me - then why not just continue to discuss with me as per post #2216 which I mentioned.

Let anyone who wants to chime in as they will. Just ignore the posts.

Or you could put them on ignore until we are done and you won't have to even look at their posts.

I've never found your questions too hard to answer - so long as they take the form of a question you really want answered.

By the way - I doubt very much that this thread would have ended up as one of the longest on record if it was only a bunch of good old boys patting like minded people on their backs. That isn't what I have been reading on this thread for almost half a year now.

That was part of my issue. What I got is no answers or one liners from the Calvinists.

I know what you believe already. I was asking them to answer.

At least they could say they do not know. That is an answer in my book.

 

[nobdysfool]

When a series of questions begins to look more like an attempt to discredit another view with no real substance to the one attempting it, many of us rightly discern that there is no real desire to learn, but just an ongoing agenda to argue, no matter what is said in reply. At that point, many of us decide that it isn't worth the time, seeing that there never will be a resolution, so we stop responding. Sorry if that offends you, but did you ever stop to think that maybe the way you're asking the questions, and the way you seem to stack questions, is offensive? You don't ask just one question, you ask multiple questions at once. And if one gets answered, but not all of them at once, you start saying "you can't answer the hard questions" (when they aren't hard, really) and in general insult those of us who are trying to give each question the care in answering that it deserves. we do what should be done: we walk away. The problem is not that Calvinists can't or won't answer, it's that your attitude screams that you don't want the answers that we give, if we get the chance.

The problem is you. Thou art the man!

 

[Marvin Knox]

That was part of my issue. What I got is no answers or one liners from the Calvinists.
I know what you believe already. I was asking them to answer.
At least they could say they do not know. That is an answer in my book.

The things I talked about in post #2216 are foundational to both sides.

Understanding the idea of the “will of God” from the Reformed or Calvinistic side of the equation would go a long way toward understanding all of their doctrines and where they get such ideas (the wrong ones as well as the right ones).

Regarding the “wills” of God related to the existence to evil in His creations - I hold the same view as any full on Calvinist. Therefore it shouldn’t matter one bit that I am not exactly one of them in the way I express my Reformed faith.

If you are truly looking for truth and an understanding of Calvinist beliefs, those foundational truths are essential no matter what source you get the information from.

You say that you don’t want to get information about Calvinism from me because I’m not really or at least completely one of them. But if you really want truth what does that matter?

I’m going to go out on a limb and take a chance of offending some of the Calvinists here by saying that IMO some of them don’t seem to be able to express these truths a bit at a time as you seem to require.

They want to feed you the entire 5-point enchilada at once or give you nothing at all. Obviously you aren’t going to buy it.

What you may buy into, however, is a very small point or two in their belief system. At least then you would understand them a little more even if you still disagreed on many major points

Having said that – it seems to me that perhaps you are purposefully looking for someone who cannot explain things to you in an effective manner.

Perhaps that’s because what you want is not truth about what Calvinism believes and why they believe what they do.

What you really want appears to me at times to be someone to fight with.

 

[Aldebaran]

The Bible plainly teaches that no one seeks God, and they never will in their total depravity, it is against thier nature. Only the ones predestined and called will come [Romans 8:30]. The question is now easy for me to answer, only the Elect need to hear the gospel and evey single one will, this make Christ's atonement 100% effecient.

Pretty inefficient then to tell us to go out and preach the gospel to the whole world, isn't it? Matt 24:14.

 

[ToBeLoved]

When a series of questions begins to look more like an attempt to discredit another view with no real substance to the one attempting it, many of us rightly discern that there is no real desire to learn, but just an ongoing agenda to argue, no matter what is said in reply. At that point, many of us decide that it isn't worth the time, seeing that there never will be a resolution, so we stop responding. Sorry if that offends you, but did you ever stop to think that maybe the way you're asking the questions, and the way you seem to stack questions, is offensive? You don't ask just one question, you ask multiple questions at once. And if one gets answered, but not all of them at once, you start saying "you can't answer the hard questions" (when they aren't hard, really) and in general insult those of us who are trying to give each question the care in answering that it deserves. we do what should be done: we walk away. The problem is not that Calvinists can't or won't answer, it's that your attitude screams that you don't want the answers that we give, if we get the chance.

The problem is you. Thou art the man!

They don't have answers. That is the conclusion.

Answer one of the posts I listed above. That would be impressive. Thanks


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[ToBeLoved]

The things I talked about in post #2216 are foundational to both sides.

Understanding the idea of the “will of God” from the Reformed or Calvinistic side of the equation would go a long way toward understanding all of their doctrines and where they get such ideas (the wrong ones as well as the right ones).

Regarding the “wills” of God related to the existence to evil in His creations - I hold the same view as any full on Calvinist. Therefore it shouldn’t matter one bit that I am not exactly one of them in the way I express my Reformed faith.

If you are truly looking for truth and an understanding of Calvinist beliefs, those foundational truths are essential no matter what source you get the information from.

You say that you don’t want to get information about Calvinism from me because I’m not really or at least completely one of them. But if you really want truth what does that matter?

I’m going to go out on a limb and take a chance of offending some of the Calvinists here by saying that IMO some of them don’t seem to be able to express these truths a bit at a time as you seem to require.

They want to feed you the entire 5-point enchilada at once or give you nothing at all. Obviously you aren’t going to buy it.

What you may buy into, however, is a very small point or two in their belief system. At least then you would understand them a little more even if you still disagreed on many major points

Having said that – it seems to me that perhaps you are purposefully looking for someone who cannot explain things to you in an effective manner.

Perhaps that’s because what you want is not truth about what Calvinism believes and why they believe what they do.

What you really want appears to me at times to be someone to fight with.

Marvin. I want to hear from them, if they know what they believe.


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[nobdysfool]

They don't have answers. That is the conclusion.

No, that is your assumption. They have the right to not answer, if in their minds, there's no point. You apparently claim to know the thoughts and intents of other peoples' hearts. I can categorically say that you don't.

Answer one of the posts I listed above. That would be impressive. Thanks

No. Mostly because you demand it, and I don't respond to demands, other that to say no, and then ignore them.

If you really, truly want to know, and are willing to listen and consider, change your tone, ask respectfully, and I will answer.

 

[ToBeLoved]

No, that is your assumption. They have the right to not answer, if in their minds, there's no point. You apparently claim to know the thoughts and intents of other peoples' hearts. I can categorically say that you don't.



No. Mostly because you demand it, and I don't respond to demands, other that to say no, and then ignore them.

If you really, truly want to know, and are willing to listen and consider, change your tone, ask respectfully, and I will answer.

Well why continue in the thread then.

I don't want to hear your opinion. Let me know if your not planning on snswering.

This is as good as the ask gets. I've waited 15 posts.

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[nobdysfool]

Well why continue in the thread then.

I don't want to hear your opinion. Let me know if your not planning on snswering.

This is as good as the ask gets. I've waited 15 posts.

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I believe I already did....

 

[Marvin Knox]

Marvin. I want to hear from them, if they know what they believe.

Well then - I have it spelled out for me pretty clearly now don't I?

You are not interested in information or even Godly debate. You're just looking for a fight and someplace to vent your spleen.

You are obviously an embodiment of what the Lord warned us about when He told us to avoid those who are only interested in foolish controversies.

You can no longer portray yourself as the innocent woman in pursuit of Biblical truth on an internet forum.

You have now burned all of the bridges which have allowed us to hold that image of you.

From your own mouth and attitude we can now see where you are coming from.

The Lord, of course, has always known where your heart is. You haven't fooled Him for a minute.

Game - Set - Match - I guess!

End of discussion.

 

[EmSw]

I hope the above post helps the Calvinist understand what we do not believe about their theories of the unBiblical TWO wills of God.

You are correct, I for one, do not believe in two wills of God. That would make God double-minded. We clearly read that it is not God's will for anyone to perish. Some have a problem with this, a big problem. They think God's will has to be done, or He is not sovereign, nor powerful.

In order to solve this dilemma, they have to invent two wills of God, one perfect, the other permissive. However, with this concept, God's permissive will is not perfect, thus giving God imperfection.

We see all through the Bible God's will not being done. It is not God's will for man to sin. We are told time and again do not sin, to flee sin, cast away iniquity, etc... This is absolutely God's will for man. Thus man's will overrides God's will when he willfully chooses to sin.

When man thinks he has God figured out, and knows His secrets, he then thinks he speaks for God, and even try to convince others of their knowledge. When another tries to question their knowledge, as we see, insults and even evil is spoken against them. You will probably see this with the responses to my post.

 

[ToBeLoved]

That sounds more like someone who just realized that the bar is much higher that they thought. If you want to truly discuss a subject, you cannot start off with hard and fast "you cant convince me otherwise" assumptions. If you want to know what we believe, then you can't complain that "we only want to push our own beliefs" How else can we discuss it if we don't talk about what we believe?



We were quite willing to discuss it, but you were not willing to listen.



No, you didn't like the answers you got, that's all.
.

Why don't you give the questions that I listed out a go. Instead of slandering someone else.

I'll pick one for you. See if you are serious.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Well then - I have it spelled out for me pretty clearly now don't I?

You are not interested in information or even Godly debate. You're just looking for a fight and someplace to vent your spleen.

You are obviously an embodiment of what the Lord warned us about when He told us to avoid those who are only interested in foolish controversies.

You can no longer portray yourself as the innocent woman in pursuit of Biblical truth on an internet forum.

You have now burned all of the bridges which have allowed us to hold that image of you.

From your own mouth and attitude we can now see where you are coming from.

The Lord, of course, has always known where your heart is. You haven't fooled Him for a minute.

Game - Set - Match - I guess!

End of discussion.

What you are doing is calling me a liar. I think you should see where your own heart is. What you have written is cruel and has publicly demeaned my character in a way that is unforgiveable. I will be repenting for these feelings of severe dislike for a brother in Christ in just a few minutes.

Your the one who needs to check where your heart is. I have explained myself several times to you, so this is uncalled for and show's that you only wish to demean character, which is what people do who have nothing to say.

Spiritually and in Christ you have lost Game. Set. Match. Showing your true colors brother.

Using parts of the Word of God to chastise me. Why are you using scripture or a form of against a fellow believer? Is that how you weild God's sword of the truth in His Word? Against fellow believers in a public forum making unfounded and disgusting claims against their character?

 

[ToBeLoved]

You are correct, I for one, do not believe in two wills of God. That would make God double-minded. We clearly read that it is not God's will for anyone to perish. Some have a problem with this, a big problem. They think God's will has to be done, or He is not sovereign, nor powerful.

In order to solve this dilemma, they have to invent two wills of God, one perfect, the other permissive. However, with this concept, God's permissive will is not perfect, thus giving God imperfection.

We see all through the Bible God's will not being done. It is not God's will for man to sin. We are told time and again do not sin, to flee sin, cast away iniquity, etc... This is absolutely God's will for man. Thus man's will overrides God's will when he willfully chooses to sin.

When man thinks he has God figured out, and knows His secrets, he then thinks he speaks for God, and even try to convince others of their knowledge. When another tries to question their knowledge, as we see, insults and even evil is spoken against them. You will probably see this with the responses to my post.

And that has been my issue. Reconciling a perfect, holy God with two different wills and with one of those wills condoning sin, or actually willing sin into existence. This is actually a fairly gnostic principle that says that God used satan temporarily to bring about sin, through His will. But then why would satan and his angels be already determined to reside in the Lake of Fire for eternity? Which one could then say if God willingly, predetermined sin than He willingly predetermined His Son's death and suffering.

If this were true, then the Bible is not perfect.

Also, if God is perfect, and only righteous than He could not have two wills that conflict.

 

[ToBeLoved]

What did Jesus just say? I gave you the quote.

I really didn't intend to insult you this time around.

But all of this rest of your post is so silly and shallow thinking that it's almost beyond belief.

Perhaps you should start with this very simple rudimentary example I'll leave you with and then go away for a while and think about it.

Come back when you've grown up a little.

God knew that Adam and Eve would sin if He planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, told them not to eat of it, and placed the serpent in the garden to tempt them.

Sure enough they looked the tree over, listened to the serpent, and ate of the tree.

They did it because God created the exact paradigm that He knew would produce a certain result - a result that He knew would happen if He created that exact paradigm.

You with me?

If God had chosen a different paradigm then what He knew would happen in the first paradigm would not happen.

No Adam and Eve = no fall of mankind.
No tree of the knowledge of good and evil = no fall of mankind.
No serpent to tempt them = no fall of mankind.
No fruit on the tree = no fall of mankind.
No eating of the fruit = no fall of mankind.

You with me?

God knows all possibilities and God knows all things that will actually happen.

He knows all things that will actually happen precisely because He is the one who creates the exact paradigm where an exact possibility will become a reality.

You with me?

Go away and apply that to the statement from the Lord that I gave you about what the various cities would do in certain circumstances and what they would not do if those circumstances did not exist.

After you've got that straight - apply it as best you can to everyday occurrences and how they might change if there were different paradigms in place.

You with me?

God has and always has had a literally infinite number of puzzle pieces to work with. He creates them as He will and He places them as He will.

He does so by sending forth His Word to accomplish what He wills.

All things exist in and through His Word.

".....one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him." 1 Corinthians 8:6

"... from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever." Romans 11:36

"... He is before all things, and in Him all things consist." Colossians 1:17

You with me?

God's decree predestines all that the Word does.

"So shall My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." Isaiah 55:11

You with me?

Now one last thing and I'll let you go away and think on these very rudimentary things from scripture.

Notice the highlight portions from the Isaiah statement about the decree of God.

Notice that God does not send forth His (omnipresent) Word without a "plan".

He predestines a certain result for everything that His Word does.

And note again that His Word is what does everything.

"In Him we live and move and have our being." Acts 17:28

All really basic stuff, I know. But you seem to be missing some of the basics.

We'll undoubtedly talk again if you work on these things. If you refuse to learn - we will be done.

You with me?

Should have paid more attention to this little gem.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I did not say that, and you KNOW I did not say that. You just want to accuse others falsely, and stir up strife.

Why?

Seems I'm not alone, anyone that disagree's is fair game.