Calvinism, explained.

[Hoghead1]

I do not believe that God predetermined everything.

Me neither. But Calvin and Calvinists definitely do.

 

[Hoghead1]

Does not the Bible itself say that satan is the king of this world?

And that for God's children, this world is not our home?

No, you are not, Marvin. Calvin is quite specific that God pr

I am making perfect sense just as I spelled out for you before.

It is not contradictory and I know that it isn't.

God's determining everything that will happen (determining everything that He will "allow to happen" as men are wont to say) - does not remove the instrument in the creation that brings that thing to past.

If God, for instance, determined that there would be a great earthquake at the time of Christ's death that would split the veil of the temple from top to bottom - it does not logically follow that there were not

normal daily movements in the plates of the earth that acted to cause that earthquake exactly at that time.

If that is a logical verdict, and it is, it would also be illogical for anyone to say that God has to do away with any man's freedom to choose a thing in order to have that thing happen.

God uses "means" to bring about what He has predestined to occur. In many instances those means are the "free" choices of men.

No, you are not al all making sense here, Marvin and are also way off from Calvin. He is very specific that God predetermines everything and that includes the "means" as well. I'm surprised you are having trouble here, as Calvin is very clear on these points.

 

[nobdysfool]

God does predestine EVERYTHING that exists and EVERYTHING that those things do. That does indeed include Satan and the anti-Christ and all that they do.

God is "responsible" for everything that He predestines to happen. That includes the things that He hates.

Angels and men are also responsible for everything that they do - including the things that God hates.

Angels and men who do the things that God hates will be punished for them.

God who predestines the things that He hates to take place will be glorified through them.

Standing back a little and watching this thread, it occurs to me that a lot of the attempts to cast aspersions on Calvinism are based mostly on the fact that Calvinism, rightly understood, "upsets the apple cart" of the picture they have in their minds of how God is, how He acts, What He does (has done, will do?), and that is what they fight against, trying to preserve that image they have in their minds of God. Right or wrong, they don't want that to change.

One thing that isn't really taught too much is the fact that God is totally other than what we are, not just a "super-human" version of man.

 

[Hoghead1]

Standing back a little and watching this thread, it occurs to me that a lot of the attempts to cast aspersions on Calvinism are based mostly on the fact that Calvinism, rightly understood, "upsets the apple cart" of the picture they have in their minds of how God is, how He acts, What He does (has done, will do?), and that is what they fight against, trying to preserve that image they have in their minds of God. Right or wrong, they don't want that to change.

One thing that isn't really taught too much is the fact that God is totally other than what we are, not just a "super-human" version of man.

Totally incorrect. The Calvinistic model of God is right out of classical theism or the traditional Christian model of God as he is in his own nature, the God of the fathers and the creeds and confessions. So Calvin didn't upset any apple cart. Rather, he helped establish the generally accepted, popular Christina model of God. Only in recent yeas, have theologians begun to upset the applecart and seriously challenge this model. That's why classical model of God is currently getting a major facelift. Also, teh Calvinistic notion that God is totally other is being challenged. The fact that God is transcendent in no way means God is "totally other" in the classical sense of being void of body, parts, passions, compassion, wholly immutable. God's transcendence resides in the fact God is the chief exemplification of all metaphysical principles, not their negation. We, for example, are sensitive, have empathy for others, true. But it is very limited. In contrast, God's sensitivity is on a scale we cannot imagine. God enjoys a direct, immediate empathic response to any and all creaturely feeling. If we are going to have a beautiful relationship with God, then God must be both like us and totally unlike us. Beauty demands uniformity in diversity. A God though to be absolutely identical to us, looking example like a human, is simply too dull and usual to be of any aesthetic interest. A God that is wholly unlike us, void of anything human, is simply too alien to be beautiful and compelling. We need top strike a balance here. Also, there is the matter of knowledge. I believe all knowing is analogous knowing, we generalize from the familiar to the unfamiliar. If there is one thing we know best, it is our human existence. Therefore, unless there is a likeness, a uniformity between ourselves and the rest of reality, we haven't got an inkling what's gong on.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I am not sure, per the title, that Calvinism can ever be explained.

I haven't read a sensible, thorough Biblical explanation that makes sense yet with the Bible.

It's a Pandora's Box. Then atheists are doing what God predestined them to do. Killers are doing what God predestined them to do. Abortions are predestined to do what God's will is for them to do. The Pharisee's were predestined to do what was God's will for them to do. Rapists are predestined to do what is God's will for them to do.

Now we have anything in God's will. Literally, anything. Sickness, birth defects, slavery, genecide, starvation.

Not because of sin, but because God predestined it. Then is sin of no consequence?

Is any sanctification a help in this world?

I might as well be on an aetheists thread now.

Now this is messed up, The whole nine-yards.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Can't some Calvinist explain EVERYTHING being predestined by the will of God. That God planned all of this and resonate it back to the Bible?

Because if not, this is a serious waste of time.

 

[Hoghead1]

I am not sure, per the title, that Calvinism can ever be explained.

I haven't read a sensible, thorough Biblical explanation that makes sense yet with the Bible.

It's a Pandora's Box. Then atheists are doing what God predestined them to do. Killers are doing what God predestined them to do. Abortions are predestined to do what God's will is for them to do. The Pharisee's were predestined to do what was God's will for them to do. Rapists are predestined to do what is God's will for them to do.

Now we have anything in God's will. Literally, anything. Sickness, birth defects, slavery, genecide, starvation.

Not because of sin, but because God predestined it. Then is sin of no consequence?
Depends upon what you mean by "explained." There is absolutely no mystery at all as to why Calvin said what he did, wrong-headed as it can be found to be.

Is any sanctification a help in this world?

I might as well be on an aetheists thread now.

Now this is messed up, The whole nine-yards.

 

[GillDouglas]

Then under your same thoughts of Calvinism, God had Adam & Eve eat the fruit in the garden and knew it would happen and according to His will?

You cannot say ALL THINGS and not include ALL THINGS.

That's exactly what I'm saying.

 

[GillDouglas]

Since I said nothing about *luck* and *chance* that is your own invention. But the truth according to Scripture (and as confirmed by observation) is that God has indeed created men as free moral agents and they are ALLOWED to do evil or good in this life. But there is a final reckoning and a final judgment. Even for Christians, the Judgement Seat of Christ will weigh every word and action. If we misrepresent God, Christ, the Gospel, and Bible truth in this life, we shall certainly be held accountable. Any theologian or preacher who asserts that God predestines some for Hell when Scripture says otherwise will be judged very severely.

Our differences in what we believe boils down to these simple facts. I put limits on men. You put limits on God.

 

[ToBeLoved]

That's exactly what I'm saying.

That's not God.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Our differences in what we believe boils down to these simple facts. I put limits on men. You put limits on God.

You think you do, but you cannot reconcile it back to the entire Bible and teachings, so I don't see an entire picture.

 

[Hoghead1]

Can't some Calvinist explain EVERYTHING being predestined by the will of God. That God planned all of this and resonate it back to the Bible?

Because if not, this is a serious waste of time.

Calvin and Calvinists do cite Scripture in support of their views here, such as Proverbs 6:13, Eph. 1:11, Math. 10:10. Of course, one can also find and cite passages to challenge it.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

I am not sure, per the title, that Calvinism can ever be explained.

I haven't read a sensible, thorough Biblical explanation that makes sense yet with the Bible.

It's a Pandora's Box. Then atheists are doing what God predestined them to do. Killers are doing what God predestined them to do. Abortions are predestined to do what God's will is for them to do. The Pharisee's were predestined to do what was God's will for them to do. Rapists are predestined to do what is God's will for them to do.

Now we have anything in God's will. Literally, anything. Sickness, birth defects, slavery, genecide, starvation.

Not because of sin, but because God predestined it. Then is sin of no consequence?

The TULIP acronym and Five Solas are a good explanation of what Calvinism is--or should be rather. You simply can't wrap your mind around God predestining people to do that which He deems sinful. The people are responsible for their rebellious hearts, but God is responsible for the working of all things for His glory. The murder and crucifixion of Jesus was a sinful act, was it not? Hear what the scripture teaches if you willing to listen:

Acts 4:27-28
For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

If God predestined men to kill Jesus, what makes you think He does not orchestrate all of history in such a fashion? Is not our entire history for His glory in the same way the crucifixion was? I find comfort knowing that God is in control no matter how out of control everything seems. If you can't find comfort in that, then let's agree to disagree.

 

[Hoghead1]

A man can no more harden his own heart than he can soften it. I never claimed that all hearts have been softened, or all would be softened. Man is born with a hardened heart due to the curse of sin. Until God softens the heart (or lifts the veil | begins the saving work | etc.) they will never spiritually discern any truth about sin, themselves or God (or His Word).

Doeesn't make senswe. EWe are responsible for how we feel. Now, if we have no choice, if we are born with hard hearts, then that is our nature. We should just go ahead an be hard hearted, as it is very bad to go against nature.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Can't some Calvinist explain EVERYTHING being predestined by the will of God. That God planned all of this and resonate it back to the Bible?

Because if not, this is a serious waste of time.

Many people, myself included, find that the Westminster Confession of Faith sums up the things we have been talking about pretty well.

It was hammered out by well over a hundred of the best theologians of the time over many years. It has served a great many in the church for close to 400 years now.

The scriptures that the theologians considered in making these statements are all available to be printed out online.

Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter III

Of God's Eternal Decree

I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

Chapter V
Of Providence
I. God the great Creator of all things does uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by His most wise and holy providence, according to His infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of His own will, to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.

II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly; yet, by the same providence, He orders them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.

 

[Job8]

Our differences in what we believe boils down to these simple facts. I put limits on men. You put limits on God.

That calls for a good laugh, since no one can put limits on God (other than deluded theologians).

 

[ToBeLoved]

The TULIP acronym and Five Solas are a good explanation of what Calvinism is--or should be rather. You simply can't wrap your mind around God predestining people to do that which He deems sinful. The people are responsible for their rebellious hearts, but God is responsible for the working of all things for His glory. The murder and crucifixion of Jesus was a sinful act, was it not? Hear what the scripture teaches if you willing to listen:

Acts 4:27-28
For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

If God predestined men to kill Jesus, what makes you think He does not orchestrate all of history in such a fashion? Is not our entire history for His glory in the same way the crucifixion was? I find comfort knowing that God is in control no matter how out of control everything seems. If you can't find comfort in that, then let's agree to disagree.

Why don't you listen.

Jesus said they could only take His life because He, HE, HE laid it down. Or did Jesus lie?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Many people, myself included, find that the Westminster Confession of Faith sums up the things we have been talking about pretty well.

It was hammered out by well over a hundred of the best theologians of the time over many years. It has served a great many in the church for close to 400 years now.

The scriptures that the theologians considered in making these statements are all available to be printed out online.

Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter III

Of God's Eternal Decree

I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

Chapter V
Of Providence
I. God the great Creator of all things does uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by His most wise and holy providence, according to His infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of His own will, to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.

II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly; yet, by the same providence, He orders them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.

And that fits back to the Bible and it's doctrine, how?

Why did all the Israelite's of the generation that worshipped the golden calf die? Was God just kidding, but killed them anyway?

It doesn't tell me anything but an opinion.

Square your opinion to the Bible. Not just salvation, but everything Jesus said.

In Matthew 23 He tells the Pharisee's that the blood of prophets is on their hands and they will be cursed. Is that a funny joke or serious? When He called them hypocrites and vipers!

Note: Not Jesus blood, He hadn't died yet.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Why don't you listen.

Jesus said they could only take His life because He, HE, HE laid it down. Or did Jesus lie?

You seem to have ignored the verse that I posted. Yes, Jesus laid down His life (which actually goes against the idea of free will because many wanted to kill Him before His time yet were not able to), but God also predestined the actions of those men who were against Jesus--that is what the verse says. I shouldn't need to post it again and explain it; just read it.

 

[Job8]

God is "responsible" for everything that He predestines to happen. That includes the things that He hates.

Well Scripture refutes you. As I already said God ALLOWS that which He abhors.

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. (1 John 1:5).

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. (James 1:13-17).

From whence come wars and fightings among you?come they not hence,even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. (James 4:1-4).