Calvinism, explained.

[ToBeLoved]

You seem to have ignored the verse that I posted. Yes, Jesus laid down His life (which actually goes against the idea of free will because many wanted to kill Him before His time yet were not able to), but God also predestined the actions of those men who were against Jesus--that is what the verse says. I shouldn't need to post it again and explain it; just read it.

Because God knew Jesus would die before He even sent Him. Didn't Jesus HAVE to die and shed blood for sin?

So of course that verse makes sense, with or without Calvinism.

I'm not talking about one verse.

Let's jump right in to what God has not already said that He predestined Christ to do. Jesus was not saved by Calvinism or Arminiism.

How was Adam & Eve's sin in the Garden that separated man and God for the entire Old Testament predestined by God?

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Because God knew Jesus would die before He even sent Him. Didn't Jesus HAVE to die and shed blood for sin?

So of course that verse makes sense, with or without Calvinism.

I'm not talking about one verse.

How was Adam & Eve's sin in the Garden that separated man and God for the entire Old Testament predestined by God?

How was Jesus predestined to die if the Fall was not predestined as well? This is what I've been saying: God predestines all things for His glory in the same way He predestined the death of Christ and sin of those who crucified Him. You either believe all things are for the glory of God (Soli Deo Gloria) or you don't.

Also, your theology doesn't allow you to believe the verse I posted from Acts, because it says the sinners who crucified Jesus were PREDESTINED to do the sinful things they did. It was not simply God looking into the future: that would be saying what the scriptures do not.

 

[Hoghead1]

Many people, myself included, find that the Westminster Confession of Faith sums up the things we have been talking about pretty well.

It was hammered out by well over a hundred of the best theologians of the time over many years. It has served a great many in the church for close to 400 years now.

The scriptures that the theologians considered in making these statements are all available to be printed out online.

Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter III

Of God's Eternal Decree

I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

Chapter V
Of Providence
I. God the great Creator of all things does uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by His most wise and holy providence, according to His infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of His own will, to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.

II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly; yet, by the same providence, He orders them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.

True for many today. However, there is also a revised confession from 1967 that I am many others follow. Also, many contemporary theologians, including myself, are highly critical about the WC's account of God.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

C O M P A T A B L I S M

God is sovereign, and man is *free and responsible for his actions. The two are not incompatible. The story of Joseph is a perfect example: "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good. . ." (Gen 50:20)

*man's freedom is limited.

 

[Hoghead1]

C O M P A T A B L I S M

God is sovereign, and man is *free and responsible for his actions. The two are not incompatible. The story of Joseph is a perfect example: "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good. . ." (Gen 50:20)

*man's freedom is limited.

Our freedom may be limited, true. However, the way Calvin has it, there is absolutely no freedom at all. Everything we do, including every one of our decisions, was predetermined ahead of time by God.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Our freedom may be limited, true. However, the way Calvin has it, there is absolutely no freedom at all. Everything we do, including every one of our decisions, was predetermined ahead of time by God.

How many times must you be corrected before you stop misrepresenting what Calvinists believe?

 

[Marvin Knox]

True for many today. However, there is also a revised confession from 1967 that I am many others follow. Also, many contemporary theologians, including myself, are highly critical about the WC's account of God.

I noticed in an earlier post that you used "He or She" when referring to God.

I hope you'll excuse me if I don't put much stock in any criticism you "contemporary theologians" put forth concerning the traditional views of God and His providential relationship with His creation.

 

[Marvin Knox]

And that fits back to the Bible and it's doctrine, how?....
It doesn't tell me anything but an opinion.......Square your opinion to the Bible. Not just salvation, but everything Jesus said.

If you can't be troubled to follow up on the scriptural evidence that the framers of the WCF used when it is offered online to you at the stroke of a key - you can bet that I won't be "fitting it back to the Bible" for you.

Why did all the Israelite's of the generation that worshipped the golden calf die? Was God just kidding, but killed them anyway?........In Matthew 23 He tells the Pharisee's that the blood of prophets is on their hands and they will be cursed. Is that a funny joke or serious? When He called them hypocrites and vipers!

Note: Not Jesus blood, He hadn't died yet.

No offense meant. But I have no idea what that means.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Well Scripture refutes you. As I already said God ALLOWS that which He abhors.

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. (1 John 1:5).

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. (James 1:13-17).

From whence come wars and fightings among you?come they not hence,even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. (James 4:1-4).

So you say that God is not responsible for what He allows to happen?

He is responsible to Himself and His nature to only do what is according to His good and perfect will and according to His good and perfect nature.

It seems to me that you just read into my post what you wanted to read and not what I said.

Please reread it.

Thanks.

 

[Hoghead1]

How many times must you be corrected before you stop misrepresenting what Calvinists believe?

Anything I said about Calvin comes right from Calvin. I don't need any correcting. Also, you need to tone down your language here. You are not my "corrector." If you are having trouble with what I am saying, then maybe you have not read Calvin as carefully as you think.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Anything I said about Calvin comes right from Calvin. I don't need any correcting. Also, you need to tone down your language here. You are not my "corrector." If you are having trouble with what I am saying, then maybe you have not read Calvin as carefully as you think.

I should point out, though you will likely disagree, that Calvinism doesn't come from Calvin himself; the five points were constructed and named Calvinism long after he had died. I myself have never read Calvin, and don't plan on it either. I call myself a Calvinist because I believe TULIP, not because I believe Calvin. You might be representing Calvin accurately, but you aren't representing Calvinists correctly: they are two different things.

Synod of Dort (Where the five points of Arminianism were refuted and the five points of Calvinism were established): 1618-1619

Calvin's death: 1564

 

[Hoghead1]

Anything I said about Calvin comes right from Calvin. I don't need any correcting. Also, you need to tone down your language here. You are not my "corrector." If you are having trouble with what I am saying, then maybe you have not read Calvin as carefully as you think.[/QUOTE
I am adding here some quotes from Calvin trhat I think you should consider.

Il compasse tellement toutes choses que rein n'advient sinon ainsi qu'il l'a determine en son conseil, n'est point une chose qui se poormene et voltage a leur plaisir, mais que Dieu par son conseil secret y gouverne tellement tout, que rtein n'advient qu'il ait luy mesme determine de seu et vouloir.
Ie dy, que les larrons et meurtriers et autres malfaiterus sont instruments de la providence de Dieu, desquelles le DSeigneur use a executer les iugmens qu'il decretez.

Ie ne doute point donc de simplewment confessor avec sainct Augustin, que la volonte de Dieu est la necessite de toutes choese, et qu'il faut necessairement que ca qu'il a ordonne et voulu advienne, comme tout ce qu'il a prevue adviendra certainement.

 

[ToBeLoved]

If you can't be troubled to follow up on the scriptural evidence that the framers of the WCF used when it is offered online to you at the stroke of a key - you can bet that I won't be "fitting it back to the Bible" for you.

No offense meant. But I have no idea what that means.

So you believe that that creed explains predestination? Where is your scriptural evidence that the creed is true?

I am not trying to downplay the creed at all or your answer. But I beleive earlier you said EVERYTHING is predestined. To me the two do not coincide.

That is why I am not looking up any scriptural evidence. I do not believe Calvinism so I'm sure you would not like my answers.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Anything I said about Calvin comes right from Calvin. I don't need any correcting. Also, you need to tone down your language here. You are not my "corrector." If you are having trouble with what I am saying, then maybe you have not read Calvin as carefully as you think.

The fact that God predestines something to happen does not equate to the fact that, as you say, "there is absolutely no freedom at all".

Apparently you need to be corrected over and over again. I have explained it in detail and you keep making the same mistake.

P.S.

If you will supply the quotes by Calvin which teach that predestination of acts of the will demands divine coercion of the will of the person doing those acts ---- I will stand corrected and admit it here.

Not to say that I will agree that it does. But to say that I will agree that Calvin taught that. Which would be one more reason not to call myself a Calvinist.

 

[Hoghead1]

I should point out, though you will likely disagree, that Calvinism doesn't come from Calvin himself; the five points were constructed and named Calvinism long after he had died. I myself have never read Calvin, and don't plan on it either. I call myself a Calvinist because I believe TULIP, not because I believe Calvin. You might be representing Calvin accurately, but you aren't representing Calvinists correctly: they are two different things.

Synod of Dort (Where the five points of Arminianism were refuted and the five points of Calvinism were established): 1618-1619

Calvin's death: 1564

Well, you should read Calvin because TULIP is lifted right out of the pages of Calving. What ever gave you the idea it wasn't?

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Well, you should read Calvin because TULIP is lifted right out of the pages of Calving. What ever gave you the idea it wasn't?

I honestly could care less what Calvin says. I believe TULIP because I think it is Biblical, not because it is Calvinical. I don't know any Calvinist who holds John Calvin as an authority, nor do I know any Arminian who holds Jacob Arminius as an authority.

 

[Marvin Knox]

So you believe that that creed explains predestination? Where is your scriptural evidence that the creed is true?

I am not trying to downplay the creed at all or your answer. But I beleive earlier you said EVERYTHING is predestined. To me the two do not coincide.

That is why I am not looking up any scriptural evidence. I do not believe Calvinism so I'm sure you would not like my answers.

One more time - and only this once more.

Look it up. The scriptures used to formulate the creed were supplied with the creed when it was finished almost 400 years ago and they are easily available for you if you wish to pursue it.

If you don't wish to look thescriptures up and verify if the Westminster "divines" were scripturally correct in their conclusions - that's completely up to you.

P.S.

Earlier you said, "I am not looking up any scriptural evidence. I do not believe Calvinism so I'm sure you would not like my answers."

That's not very Berean of you.

Also I would like very much to know if and why you disagree with the conclusions of these 100 plus Godly theologians concerning witness of those scriptures,

 

[ToBeLoved]

So you say that God is not responsible for what He allows to happen?

He is responsible to Himself and His nature to only do what is according to His good and perfect will and according to His good and perfect nature.

It seems to me that you just read into my post what you wanted to read and not what I said.

Please reread it.

Thanks.

I think his verses make sense. If God cannot be tempted and does not tempt any man, than that pretty much shatters your predestination of everything argument.

1 John 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

James 1:13-17
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

James 4:1-4
From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence,even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

 

[ToBeLoved]

One more time - and only this once more.

Look it up. The scriptures used to formulate the creed were supplied with the creed when it was finished almost 400 years ago and they are easily available for you if you wish to pursue it.

If you don't wish to look thescriptures up and verify if the Westminster "divines" were scripturally correct in their conclusions - that's completely up to you.

It's not the answer then. doesn't explain Calvininsm or predestination of everything to me.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

I think his verses make sense. If God cannot be tempted and does not tempt any man, than that pretty much shatters your predestination of everything argument.

Predestining sin and tempting people to sin are two different things, so nothing is shattered. You have also decided to ignore my post concerning the verse in Acts. I guess it is time for me to leave the thread once again; Lord knows I can only deal with so much of this at a time.