Calvinism, explained.

[ToBeLoved]

No one, least of all me, said that a prayer for increased faith was wrong or would not be answered. What has been said are two things:

1) An unregenerate person i.e. "sinner" does not, of his our accord ask God for faith. Sinners don't seek God.

2) Someone with even a weak faith has been granted that faith by God, and he may, and should ask God to increase his faith, and he can expect an answer to that prayer, although, in my own experience, that is a dangerous prayer to pray. Gaining faith in God often comes by losing something/everything else, and that is a painful process, but of infinite worth.

Does not God say that He gives a measure of faith to all. So is the measure of faith different for all?

 

[EmSw]

A former sinner, saved by Grace.

Paul said he was the chief of sinners; how is it you say you are not a sinner?

Do you not sin anymore?

Which, by definition, makes them unsaved, and therefore unheard.

You're engaging in circular reasoning. You basically just said it is not the unsaved whom God does not hear, but the unsaved whom God does not hear.

Here's what I said - 'It's not the unsaved whom God does not hear, but those who hold iniquity in their hearts, and do not cease to do evil.'

Saved and unsaved alike are sinners. It is those who hold iniquity in their hearts, and continue to do evil God will not hear. Hopefully one day, you will see the importance of Ezekiel 18:31 one day.

 

[EmSw]

I didn't say that at all.

What I said is that if an unsaved person thinks Jesus Christ existed, but is lacking the faith to know for sure, that that person can pray to God for more faith.

So there is a degree of faith/belief there already.

How do you know that that person is not being called by God through that miniscule belief and the desire to pray?

Your position is irrational because the person already has a small, but significant showing of faith in that they desire to pray for more faith.

We are not talking about someone who prays when their spouse is dying with a hope that by a miracle there is a God and that God will help them.

Jesus said that no one who comes to me will I cast away.

Your words are true.

Mark 9
19 He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.
20 And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.
21 And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.
22 And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.
23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Jesus is talking to a FAITHLESS generation. He not only heard them, but answered their faithless prayer. And not only that, the faithless father asked Jesus to help his unbelief.

 

[EmSw]

No one, least of all me, said that a prayer for increased faith was wrong or would not be answered. What has been said are two things:

1) An unregenerate person i.e. "sinner" does not, of his our accord ask God for faith. Sinners don't seek God.

2) Someone with even a weak faith has been granted that faith by God, and he may, and should ask God to increase his faith, and he can expect an answer to that prayer, although, in my own experience, that is a dangerous prayer to pray. Gaining faith in God often comes by losing something/everything else, and that is a painful process, but of infinite worth.

Matthew 17
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, because of your unbelief:

The disciples were filled with unbelief. How did they lose the gift of faith from God?

 

[EmSw]

He also said, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. . ." (John 6:44)

Any indication of faith, even a tiny bit, is an indication of the Father's drawing, not the person's seeking.

And who decides who God draws? Many unsaved people came to Jesus, including Pharisees, Sadducees, publicans, and sinners.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Matthew 17
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, because of your unbelief:

The disciples were filled with unbelief. How did they lose the gift of faith from God?

Filled is not the correct word.

 

[nobdysfool]

Paul said he was the chief of sinners; how is it you say you are not a sinner?

Do you not sin anymore?

No matter what I answered, you would be trying to make me look bad.

Here's what I said - 'It's not the unsaved whom God does not hear, but those who hold iniquity in their hearts, and do not cease to do evil.'

Saved and unsaved alike are sinners. It is those who hold iniquity in their hearts, and continue to do evil God will not hear. Hopefully one day, you will see the importance of Ezekiel 18:31 one day.

Yeah, I know that you think that Ez. 18:31 is the central, most important scripture in the bible. That doesn't mean that it is, though.

You try to make a distinction between the unsaved, and "those who hold iniquity in their hearts and do not cease from sin".
What is the difference??? Both sides of the distinction are unsaved, because they are both doing the exact same things!

Unsaved is as unsaved does.

Just so you understand, I am a sinner saved by Grace.

 

[EmSw]

No matter what I answered, you would be trying to make me look bad.

You were the one who said you were a 'former' sinner.

Yeah, I know that you think that Ez. 18:31 is the central, most important scripture in the bible. That doesn't mean that it is, though.

I guess if you were a 'former' sinner, then it doesn't apply to you.

You try to make a distinction between the unsaved, and "those who hold iniquity in their hearts and do not cease from sin".
What is the difference??? Both sides of the distinction are unsaved, because they are both doing the exact same things!

It's very clear to me. It's not a mystery. If you don't repent and turn from sin, cast away your iniquities, flee sin, and cleanse your heart, you are holding sin in your heart. If you continue in sin, you have not ceased from it.

Unsaved is as unsaved does.

And saved is as saved DOES!

Just so you understand, I am a sinner saved by Grace.

I think it is wise to remove 'former'.

 

[ToBeLoved]

My reply matches your conversation. No one is going to force you to answer. Put your thinking cap on. We would appreciate if you use the quoting right so we can link back to your conversations your responding to. No links and we're not going to follow you.

Please show me where I did not use replies that match my conversation? The post number is fine, I will find it.

Also, show me where you feel there should have been links to follow and what those links should have been, in your opinion?

If you prove me wrong, I will be more than happy at your suggestion, to put my thinking cap on.

 

[tulipbee]

Please show me where I did not use replies that match my conversation? The post number is fine, I will find it.

Also, show me where you feel there should have been links to follow and what those links should have been, in your opinion?

If you prove me wrong, I will be more than happy at your suggestion, to put my thinking cap on.

We can't click on your past posts nor those you're replying to cause you responded in email style instead of tol's quoting features. Maybe you're using an app. Anyway, I can't work with your posts but go have fun anyway. Good day

 

[Marvin Knox]

I think if an unsaved person is having trouble finding enough faith to trust that Jesus is real and died for them on the cross as Savior, then I believe if they pray for faith, God will give them more faith in Him.

The only time God gives faith to an unbeliever is to drawn that person to believe on His Son and be saved. If He does that - they will come to believe on the Son.

I suppose that a person who has been given faith to draw them to the Son could pray a prayer for more faith as part of the process of coming to confess Christ.

So long as you are talking about such a person and not a person who has not been given to the Son by the Father - your reasoning is correct IMO.

If you are talking about the non-elect of the world praying for "more" faith - then you you are not correct according to the scriptures IMO.

Does not God say that He gives a measure of faith to all. So is the measure of faith different for all?

He gives a measure of faith to all believers.

He doesn't give a measure of faith to all of fallen mankind across the board.

People may or may not be arguing against your position for good reason. Perhaps if you clarify your position on the existence of inherent faith in fallen man it would help.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The only time God gives faith to an unbeliever is to drawn that person to believe on His Son and be saved. If He does that - they will come to believe on the Son.

I suppose that a person who has been given faith to draw them to the Son could pray a prayer for more faith as part of the process of coming to confess Christ.

So long as you are talking about such a person and not a person who has not been given to the Son by the Father - your reasoning is correct IMO.

If you are talking about the non-elect of the world praying for "more" faith - then you you are not correct according to the scriptures IMO.

I believe that there is both a case for some reasoning behind the belief that we are called before we are born, BUT in the context that God is always perfect and God because He is not human He is not held to time as we are in our 3D reality.

In that sense, I see God as being Omnipresent and Omnipotent and knowing all, from beginning to end (as we see time).

With this, I think God breathed the truth into the scriptures, BUT THAT we do not understand not being held to time in our brains, so we do not fully understand what God is saying.

In the fact that God knows all, I think we were elect. In our earthly experience, I think we live out our own free-will choices in real-time.

Does that make sense?[/QUOTE]

 

[Marvin Knox]

I believe that there is both a case for some reasoning behind the belief that we are called before we are born, BUT in the context that God is always perfect and God because He is not human He is not held to time as we are in our 3D reality.

In that sense, I see God as being Omnipresent and Omnipotent and knowing all, from beginning to end (as we see time).

With this, I think God breathed the truth into the scriptures, BUT THAT we do not understand not being held to time in our brains, so we do not fully understand what God is saying.

In the fact that God knows all, I think we were elect. In our earthly experience, I think we live out our own free-will choices in real-time.

Does that make sense?

It makes sense and it's a way to explain a few things outside of the Reformed way of explaining them.

But I don't believe it's what the scriptures teach.

Be that as it may - it is not correct to say that all of fallen mankind has faith. Is that what you are saying?

 

[Patmos]

Tulipbee

Continue your Bible study with these.
Deuteronomy 19:18-19
The judges shall inquire diligently, and if the witness is a false witness and has accused his brother falsely, then you shall do to him as he had meant to do to his brother. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

Exodus 23:1
“You shall not spread a false report. You shall not join hands with a wicked man to be a malicious witness.

1 Peter 3:16
Having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.

You're brave enough to say, " Hey god !!!! Wake up !! I earned it and deserve it so get your butt up and save me ! ! !" Such bravery like yours would get struck by lighting and deep fried. You better go hide !

TULIPBEE - Put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander. 1 Peter 2:1-12

And he Christian thing to do would be to apologise. It is called repentance of sin.

 

[Patmos]

Christians

Tell me something tulipbee. You are a Christian - Yes/no?

What is a 'Presby' as you call yourself this in a previous post along with:

"Oh, You're right! This thread did ask "former Calvinist" what ever that means. Although, I do sound like a Calvinist or a Lutheran or a primitive Baptist, I meant to say that the Bible is my guidelines to everything I say. I rather say, I'm only a basic Christian and am very sad of so many divisions. I'm a Christian and really don't belong in broken up divisions or denominations. Truth set me free and I'm a freelance Christian but to let you know, I'm also a member of the orthodox church as well as the reformed churches, charismatic, catholic and many more. Going through all those churches was interesting and full of bugs, but now I'm just a freelance Christian relying on the Word, only. I'm a former Calvinist as well as a Calvinist. Calvinism is just a term to explain the Bible. Why some many denominations to confuse us even more. Hopefully , I'm welcomed in this thread, If not, just say so. We'll see what follows

sorry for my english. I'm trying.

Presby"

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/question-for-former-calvinists.5330740/page-2

If you are "sad of so many divisions" as you say above, then why are you make false allegations ?

 

[nobdysfool]

Matthew 17
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, because of your unbelief:

The disciples were filled with unbelief. How did they lose the gift of faith from God?

I wouldn't say they were FILLED with unbelief, they were just in need of faith beyond what they had. Unbelief, and faith, are not 100% or 0%. Every one of us has a mixture of faith and unbelief. Some things regarding God we believe without question (have faith in), other things we still are not certain about. That uncertainty constitutes unbelief in that area. They didn't lose the gift of faith, as you so inaccurately put it, they just ran into a situation where their faith was not yet formed or strong. the gift of faith from God is not an unspecific, one-size-fits-all, total faith for anything gift.

 

[ToBeLoved]

It makes sense and it's a way to explain a few things outside of the Reformed way of explaining them.

But I don't believe it's what the scriptures teach.

Be that as it may - it is not correct to say that all of fallen mankind has faith. Is that what you are saying?

I will explain later tonight after work when I come back. Right now. Quick update. Talk soon

 

[EmSw]

I wouldn't say they were FILLED with unbelief, they were just in need of faith beyond what they had. Unbelief, and faith, are not 100% or 0%. Every one of us has a mixture of faith and unbelief. Some things regarding God we believe without question (have faith in), other things we still are not certain about. That uncertainty constitutes unbelief in that area. They didn't lose the gift of faith, as you so inaccurately put it, they just ran into a situation where their faith was not yet formed or strong. the gift of faith from God is not an unspecific, one-size-fits-all, total faith for anything gift.

So, how much unbelief can a man have, and still be saved? How much faith must he have to be saved? Since you want to put faith/unbelief in proportions, tell me the proportion man must have to be saved.

 

[nobdysfool]

So, how much unbelief can a man have, and still be saved? How much faith must he have to be saved? Since you want to put faith/unbelief in proportions, tell me the proportion man must have to be saved.

That is not what I was saying, AND YOU KNOW IT WASN'T!

No man has 100% faith. Do You?

The kind of faith being talked about here is not saving faith, because if a man is saved, that's not what was in question. The example was about the Disciples being sent out as Jesus sent them to perform signs and wonders, and they had trouble with part of it. That didn't mean they were not saved, salvation wasn't the issue, it was the faith to perform the signs and wonders that Jesus commissioned them to do, that they were having trouble with, and only with certain parts of it.

To try to reduce this to "how much unbelief can a man have, and still be saved?", is a willful refusal to actually engage constructively with the topic, but just looking for "gotcha!s", and ways to make others look bad for not agreeing with you. Stop acting like a juvenile and actually engage in constructive conversation, or just remain silent.

You know the saying, "It is better to remain silent and be thought to be a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt"...?

You DO understand that there are more kinds of faith than saving faith, don't you?

 

[EmSw]

That is not what I was saying, AND YOU KNOW IT WASN'T!

No man has 100% faith. Do You?

The kind of faith being talked about here is not saving faith, because if a man is saved, that's not what was in question. The example was about the Disciples being sent out as Jesus sent them to perform signs and wonders, and they had trouble with part of it. That didn't mean they were not saved, salvation wasn't the issue, it was the faith to perform the signs and wonders that Jesus commissioned them to do, that they were having trouble with, and only with certain parts of it.

To try to reduce this to "how much unbelief can a man have, and still be saved?", is a willful refusal to actually engage constructively with the topic, but just looking for "gotcha!s", and ways to make others look bad for not agreeing with you. Stop acting like a juvenile and actually engage in constructive conversation, or just remain silent.

You know the saying, "It is better to remain silent and be thought to be a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt"...?

You DO understand that there are more kinds of faith than saving faith, don't you?

Yes, a living faith and a dead faith!