Calvinism, explained.

[Aldebaran]

2 Peter 3:9, see read in context the Peter is writing to the 'beloved' who are the 'elect' who will be saved in the future.
God does not wait patiently for those He knows will never repent. He is only concerned with the saving of His foreknown elect who will obtain salvation.

Then where does "patience" come into play? If you knew exactly what was about to happen, you don't have to have patience in waiting for it. You only need patience if you don't know whether it will happen or not.

 

[tulipbee]

Actually one needs a pair of eyes rather than an inflated ego to read it.

And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

That's a bad response. Don't try agian

 

[tulipbee]

"some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God.

TB, I cut ad pasted this from an online Bible.

Too much self powered free will in his responses.

 

[tulipbee]

Still no verses on the 4th dimension.
I wonder why. Actually, no I don't

Try a billion dimensions.
You're a one sided cardboard dimension.
That's half of one you can see.

 

[Aldebaran]

That's a bad response. Don't try agian

Too much self powered free will in his responses.

Try a billion dimensions.
You're a one sided cardboard dimension.
That's half of one you can see.

It sounds like you consider yourself to be one of the elected elite. But the way you talk to people doesn't indicate the love for others Christ advocated.

 

[Patmos]

Ephesians 3 mentions a fourth dimension.
Appreciation of the Mystery
14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

Which mystery Paul mentions earlier
Purpose of the Mystery
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him. 13 Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

And I am very much a Calvinist in theology.

Fail ( and miserably).
Did ya know that aeroplanes have six degrees of freedom ?

You said "width" (X axis), "Length" ( Z axis) "Depth ad height" (Y axis). Oops this is only one dimension!
Never mind.

This thread is about explaining Calvinism. Would you like to have a go ?

 

[Patmos]

.....
Luke 19:10, Jesus comes to seek and to save that which was lost, which would be the 'lost sheep'.

So you are saying the elect are lost!

Jesus does not shepherd the lost who are the goats, serpents, scorpions and devils.

Wilt. First you say Jesus came to save the lost sheep (lost elect), Next double back and say does not save the lost.

Make your mind up.

 

[Patmos]

Too much self powered free will in his responses.

Huh. What happened to predestination ?

BTW, that was a cut and paste from a Bible!

 

[sdowney717]

Then where does "patience" come into play? If you knew exactly what was about to happen, you don't have to have patience in waiting for it. You only need patience if you don't know whether it will happen or not.

But see God does know all things that will happen, or God would not be God. All things exist for and are for God, of Him, to Him, through Him are all things. So we can understand God has a plan, and part of His plan is to reveal His glorious nature in the way He works both judgement and mercy. That Peter verse is showing God's patience for His elect, as we are not consumed due to our evil behaviors provoking God, because God is merciful towards those that will be saved. That verse simply exposes a quality of God, that He is patient. God certainly put up with the evil in the world of Noah's day, delaying His eventual judgement. God lets bad things happen, to 'fill up the measure of their sins' for those He know will never be saved.
NT verse
1 Thessalonians 2:16
forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

OT verse
Genesis 15:16New King James Version (NKJV)
16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”

Words of Christ
Matthew 23:31-33New King James Version (NKJV)
31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt.
33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

God's patience regarding the elect who receive His mercy, and the rebels who are prepared for destruction.

Romans 9
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[tulipbee]

Huh. What happened to predestination ?

BTW, that was a cut and paste from a Bible!

Nothing !

 

[Patmos]

Nothing !

Figures.

 

[tulipbee]

Figures.

How does one make choices before birth?

 

[Aldebaran]

How does one make choices before birth?

Before we're born again, we're considered to be "dead", but not totally. The complete term is "dead in our trespasses". But I'm sure you'd agree that people who are totally atheist make choices all the time. Sometimes they even choose to accept Christ as their saviour.

 

[Patmos]

How does one make choices before birth?

You are asking this of an Arminian!

TB, your are one funny petal.

 

[tulipbee]

You are asking this of an Arminian!

TB, your are one funny petal.

A rooted one !

 

[tulipbee]

Before we're born again, we're considered to be "dead", but not totally. The complete term is "dead in our trespasses". But I'm sure you'd agree that people who are totally atheist make choices all the time. Sometimes they even choose to accept Christ as their saviour.

Total depravity is self explainatory !

 

[fhansen]

The tendency is to set aside God's sovereignty in order to make room for the autocracy of the human will. The pride and presumption of man, on the one hand, and his ignorance and depravity on the other, lead him to exclude God and to exalt himself instead. God is the ultimate source of all power that is found in His creation. God has lost none of His power over creation, and it is highly dishonoring to Him to suppose that He struggles against the wills of men to attempt to accomplish His purposes.

Pride and presumption need not be the source of man's understanding of his own freedom. God can sovereignly deem that man should be free to decide, by his own counsel, his fate, choosing life over death, good over evil, even as he requires the help of grace to achieve this. In His foreknowledge God incorporates these choices into His comprehensive plan. In this manner love is given room, made possible-mutual love which is freely accepted or rejected by man. God desires that all men should come to Him, but He doesn't force that to happen so much as He draws us, patiently, into the right course of action. Some will ultimately refuse His bidding.

Effect and permanent change.

In regards only to those whom God has elected to salvation by His saving grace there is a total and permanent change that occurs in them. At an appointed time predetermined by the His sovereign will, His spirit comes upon a man's heart convincing him of his current state of sin and misery, enlightening his mind in the knowledge of Christ and beginning the work of salvation. This cursed man, being altered and changed by the working of the Holy Spirit, is enabled to answer to call to salvation and embrace the grace freely offered. And if God has chosen these men absolutely and unconditionally to eternal life, and if His Spirit has effectively applied the benefit of redemption, the conclusion is that the persons shall not be lost, ever. The whole course of the salvation of men is divinely planned and divinely guided, not thwarted or altered by the will of men. This is Calvinism in a nutshell, explained to the best of my understanding.

This part is bogus. A person needs to take a hard, honest, look at themselves and ask if this scenario is really, conclusively, true of them. I don't believe it can be done. I don't believe he's privy to that knowledge, on that level.

 

[Patmos]

A rooted one !

rooted petal!

 

[Patmos]

".......All things without exception are disposed by Him, and His will is the ultimate account of all that occurs. He permits all that He wills, including the actions of men, so that what He has ordained will come to pass...

.....The pride and presumption of man, on the one hand, and his ignorance and depravity on the other, lead him to exclude God and to exalt himself instead. ...."

This is bog standard Calvinistic self contradictory nonsense. ALL things the writer says, including 'the actions of men' are caused and happen because of the plan. BUT, no, the writer then explains that man exalts himself! Not God causing him (man) to exalt himself. Self contradictory nonsense.


"God has lost none of His power over creation, and it is highly dishonoring to Him to suppose that He struggles against the wills of men to attempt to accomplish His purposes."

So the God who is the cause of ALL things is causing man to be dishonoring!

Not just a contradictory article but inflammatory as well. Which are these men claiming God has 'lost his power' ? Certainly not Arminians. Check the Society of Evangelical Arminians website and you will not find one.

Who says 'He struggles against the wills of men' ? Only bad mannered and ill informed Calvinists make this false charge. And note: I am NOT saying ALL Calvinists are bad mannered and ill informd.


So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander. Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation—

And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.

 

[sdowney717]

God has chosen you beforehand in Christ to deny to the flesh any glory at all.
Paul teaches that our calling which has resulted in our being saved is due to God's personal decision and not the decision of man.
"29 that no flesh should glory in His presence."

If you had grounds for boasting, then you, your flesh, the natural you, would be the one making the decision to follow Christ.
God completely invalidates any idea of man coming to Christ without Him doing the work, otherwise flesh could glory in God's presence.
No a man must be born of God, born again by God's Spirit first, so that no flesh can glory in His presence, Which is why Christ says you must be born again first to enter into the kingdom of God second. And that choice is entirely God's which He does for His own glory.


1 Corinthians 1
Christ the Power and Wisdom of God
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Glory Only in the Lord
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”