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Calvinism, explained.

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ClothedInGrace

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Firstly, I want to make it clear that I'm only chiming in to be helpful to both sides. So much typing is wasted on CF because we aren't in agreement about terms before beginning to argue. There are many people who are using the term Calvinist, but are not really Calvinists, as most would have defined the term a mere 20 years ago. If my opinion matters, I don't think it's helpful or accurate for Baptists to refer to themselves as Calvinists. Reformed Baptist might fit better.

Agreement with 5 points is merely agreement Calvin's soteriology; however, covent theology plays a vital role in arriving at his soteriology, so can one have Calvin's view of salvation, not have his view on covenants, and yet call himself a Calvinist? It's done all of the time, but it's probably best to avoid it for the sake of clarity.

Lastly, whatever you refer to yourself as, I have far more in common with my Reformed (or Calvinistic) Baptist brothers than I do with most of what the evangelical church has become today.
I hold to the Five Points, and so I am able to call myself a Five Point Calvinist; you hold to (I'm assuming) most of what John Calvin taught, and so you call yourself a Presbyterian. Just because I'm not Presbyterian doesn't mean I'm not a Calvinist. I just disagree with the idea that to be a Calvinist means you must accept all of what Calvin taught. I believe the five points, so under what soteriology should I label myself?

Anyways, I don't mean to get into an argument; I call myself a Calvinist though our definitions may differ.
 
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ClothedInGrace

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Brian can (and I'm sure will) speak for himself, but I'm seeing a rejection of Calvin and Calvinism here on the basis of disagreeing with Calvin and most of the rest of Christianity as well. That seems to make the point for the people on this thread who have said that there's some preoccupation with "Calvinism" that doesn't seem exactly to be about Calvinism!
I don't reject Calvinism if by Calvinism we are talking about the Five Points of Calvinism; I reject the idea that all of Calvin's teachings are Biblical and must be adhered to be listed on the Calvinist side of soteriology. As far as most of Christianity is concerned, many simply hold to teachings that aren't Biblical, and on the basis of my conscience and the Holy Spirit I'm not going to believe all of what the Church says; Jesus is our head, not eachother.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Contrary to false rumors, Predestination is not something that Calvinists preach when preaching the Gospel. And it is disingenuous to say that they "should" or they "must" preach it, as anyone's predestination is only evident in retrospect to us. No one knows beforehand. We preach the Gospel,. and those whom He has foreordained to come, will believe. And sometimes it's not always at that moment, it might just be a seed being planted, that will come forth later. That's the problem with the formulaic "say the sinner's prayer and you're saved" type of preaching going on nowadays.
So you know what all the other people are preaching? You know what they say and do not say. You know exactly. Hmmm.........

To make that type of generalizatioin is ludacris. That is the problem, you *think* you know how Calvisim plays out in the real world. Nice to think with you there, but I've seen much different.
 
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nobdysfool

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So you know what all the other people are preaching? You know what they say and do not say. You know exactly. Hmmm.........

That's not what I said. If that's what you read, then may be you need to read it again , and again, until you don't see what I didn't say...

To make that type of generalizatioin is ludacris. That is the problem, you *think* you know how Calvisim plays out in the real world. Nice to think with you there, but I've seen much different.

Now you know how some us feel when your side makes sweeping generalizations. Just remember, exceptions neither prove or disprove anything. But, I did not generalize.
 
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Albion

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You're welcome.



I don't think predestination is a 'small part' of salvation...etc. at all. It's the very foundation upon which Calvinism is built.
I'll agree that it's PART of the whole, but I believe Skala was right to say that it's only part and it's a mistake to focus on this part to the exclusion of what is probably more important. But agree or disagree with Skala, it's certain that he wasn't "confused" about it.
 
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Albion

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Why do so many Calvinist bring it up then?
On these forums, I'd say that it's usually opponents who bring it up. Look, for example, at all the threads that have as their topic, "How dumb is OSAS?"

'chosen' 'elect' 'called' 'regeneration' It's all over in most any thread about salvation. We cannot get away from them.
Well, not all of those terms are uniquely Calvinistic. The Bible speaks of the elect, so every time the topic turns even generally in the direction of salvation, Faith vs Works, etc. it's likely that someone is going to cite a Bible verse that includes some of these words.

Anyway, I don't see that it should cause such exasperation as you seem to be indicating. I've seen "Worship on Saturday or else" made into thread after thread around here, and nothing at all about any of them is new. So I just don't participate in them anymore. I'd suggest that this is what you do when Calvinism or Predestination come up.
 
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Albion

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Should I just refrain from calling myself Calvinist? Should I be a TULIPer? Maybe just Reformed? I never knew this was an issue until now.
Well, "Calvinist" is a general or loose term, but if you believe in most of the five points, Reformed polity, and Calvinistic social standards, I'd think referring to yourself by either term makes sense, regardless of what others say. "Reformed" means much the same thing, but it refers as much to denominations, so if you belong to a Reformed (or Presbyterian) church, there's some logic in using the term regardless of what you think about the above.
 
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ToBeLoved

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That's not what I said. If that's what you read, then may be you need to read it again , and again, until you don't see what I didn't say...
nobdysfool said:
Contrary to false rumors, Predestination is not something that Calvinists preach when preaching the Gospel.


I don't see this. But you say it is.

I've read it 6 times and I'm still not buying it. How many more times until it makes sense?
 
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ToBeLoved

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I'll agree that it's PART of the whole, but I believe Skala was right to say that it's only part and it's a mistake to focus on this part to the exclusion of what is probably more important. But agree or disagree with Skala, it's certain that he wasn't "confused" about it.
I agree with this from another poster:

EmSw said:
I don't think predestination is a 'small part' of salvation...etc. at all. It's the very foundation upon which Calvinism is built.


Yup. Very true.
 
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Albion

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I agree with this from another poster:

EmSw said:
I don't think predestination is a 'small part' of salvation...etc. at all. It's the very foundation upon which Calvinism is built.


Yup. Very true.
Uh, no. That's what Skala was explaining, but there's no guarantee that every last reader will get it. It probably depends upon how well anyone knows, really knows, Reformed theology or Calvin's writings (which are extensive and, most people would say, complicated).
 
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ToBeLoved

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Uh, no. That's what Skala was explaining, but there's no guarantee that every last reader will get it. It probably depends upon how well anyone knows, really knows, Reformed theology or Calvin's writings (which are extensive and, most people would say, complicated).
So, then why would people be using this theology to explain salvation in simple terms in spreading the gospel, the Good News of Christ Jesus?

Should they get several books along with the gospel? For further study to understand the simple gospel of death on the cross for the forgiveness of sin?
 
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expos4ever

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Does not the Bible itself say that satan is the king of this world.
I am virtually certain the Bible does not say this. I think you are referring to a text where Satan is referred to as "god" of this world. If the Bible asserted Satan was king, that would conflict sharply with the view that Jesus is King, something repeatedly endorsed in Scripture.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I am virtually certain the Bible does not say this. I think you are referring to a text where Satan is referred to as "god" of this world. If the Bible asserted Satan was king, that would conflict sharply with the view that Jesus is King, something repeatedly endorsed in Scripture.

John 12:31

New International Version
Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.

New Living Translation
The time for judging this world has come, when Satan, the ruler of this world, will be cast out.

English Standard Version
Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.

Berean Study Bible
Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out.

Berean Literal Bible
Now is the judgment of this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out.

New American Standard Bible
"Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

King James Bible
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Ephesisans 2:2

New International Version
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

New Living Translation
You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil--the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.

English Standard Version
in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—

Berean Study Bible
in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

Berean Literal Bible
in which once you walked according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit now working in the sons of disobedience,

New American Standard Bible
in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

King James Bible
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
 
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Aldebaran

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I am virtually certain the Bible does not say this. I think you are referring to a text where Satan is referred to as "god" of this world. If the Bible asserted Satan was king, that would conflict sharply with the view that Jesus is King, something repeatedly endorsed in Scripture.

I always thought this idea came from when Satan brought Jesus to the high mountain and offered to give him all of the world if Jesus would just bow down and worship him. Jesus never disputed that the world was Satan's to give Him. The only thing Jesus disputed was the idea of worshipping anyone by God.

But the quotes from TobeLoved in the post above mine are also good indicators.
 
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expos4ever

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Our differences in what we believe boils down to these simple facts. I put limits on men. You put limits on God.
Please. This is patent rhetoric. You cast those who disagree with you in the position of somehow seeking to denigrate God as somehow less than a "true" God. Well, that is entirely unfair precisely because it by no means obvious that a God who controls every detail is "more of a God" in the right sense. It seems self-evident to me - and I suggest to most - that a God who willingly chooses the "risk" of creating humans with a measure of free will is engaged in a grander, if riskier, creation project.

A God who insists on creating "puppets" with no self-determining freedom rightly strikes us as somewhat juvenile.

We can perhaps discuss this. But clearly what you post is not remotely fair.
 
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Patmos

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I should point out, though you will likely disagree, that Calvinism doesn't come from Calvin himself; the five points were constructed and named Calvinism long after he had died. I myself have never read Calvin, and don't plan on it either. I call myself a Calvinist because I believe TULIP, not because I believe Calvin. You might be representing Calvin accurately, but you aren't representing Calvinists correctly: they are two different things.

Synod of Dort (Where the five points of Arminianism were refuted and the five points of Calvinism were established): 1618-1619

Calvin's death: 1564
"that Calvinism doesn't come from Calvin himself"
This is RIDICULOUS. I have never heard so much baloney. Dort, TULIP and most other confessions were LIFTED of the very pages of what Calvin wrote - 'The Institutes of the Christian Religion'.

As can be verified very simply thanks to google. A Calvinist really should Calvin's Institutes; IMO one is not qualified to call himself a Calvinist if he has NO IDEA about his mentor's works - including Luther or any confession.

For those that cannot be bothered:

JOHN CALVIN Said:

"I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now bound, all of Adam's children have fallen by God's will." Bk 3, Ch 23, s. 4

"With Augustine I say: the Lord has created those whom he unquestionably foreknew would go to destruction. This has happened because he has willed. Bk 3, Ch 23, s. 5

"Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam's fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? ... The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree." "And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision.. Bk 3, Ch 23, s. 7

"...salvation is freely offered to some while others are barred from access to it.." Bk 3, Ch 21, s. 5

"We call predestination God's eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others." Bk 3, ch 21, s. 5

"..we say that God once established by his eternal and unchangeable plan those whom he long before determined once for all to receive into salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, he would devote to destruction. ...he has barred the door of life to those whom he has given over to damnation." Bk 3, Ch 21, s. 7

"...God could foresee nothing good in man except what he had already determined to bestow by the benefit of his election,.." Bk 3, Ch 22, s.5

"... predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse." Bk 3, ch 22, s. 9

"...although the voice of the gospel addresses all in general, yet the gift of faith is rare." Bk 3, ch 22, s. 9

"Indeed many, ..accept election in such terms as to deny that anyone is condemned. But they do this very ignorantly and childishly, since election itself could not stand except as set over against reprobation. Bk 3, Ch 23, s 1.

"Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children." Bk 3, Ch 23, s. 1

"...it is utterly inconsistent to transfer the preparation for destruction to anything but God's secret plan." "..God's secret plan is the cause of hardening." B 2, Ch 23, s. 1

"But since he foresees future events only by reason of the fact that he decreed that they take place, they vainly raise a quarrel over foreknowledge, when it is clear that all things take place rather by his determination and bidding." Bk 3, Ch 23, s. 6

"For if predestination is nothing but the meting out of divine justice--secret, indeed, but blameless--because it is certain that they were not unworthy to be predestined to this condition, it is equally certain that the destruction they undergo by predestination is also most just. Besides, their perdition depends upon the predestination of God in such a way that the cause and occasion of it are found in themselves. For the first man fell because the Lord had judged it to be expedient; why he so judged is hidden from us." Bk 3, Ch 23, s. 8

All Quotations are from "THE INSTITUTES" of John Calvin, without alternation of any kind.
 
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expos4ever

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John 12:31

New International Version
Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.

New Living Translation
The time for judging this world has come, when Satan, the ruler of this world, will be cast out.

English Standard Version
Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.

Berean Study Bible
Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out.

Berean Literal Bible
Now is the judgment of this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out.

New American Standard Bible
"Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

King James Bible
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Ephesisans 2:2

New International Version
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

New Living Translation
You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil--the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.

English Standard Version
in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—

Berean Study Bible
in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

Berean Literal Bible
in which once you walked according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit now working in the sons of disobedience,

New American Standard Bible
in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

King James Bible
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
These text support the position that Satan is no King. A prince is decidedly not a king. And surely you must realize that the statements about Satan being a "ruler" are made in the clear context of his being deposed from that rulership position.
 
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expos4ever

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I always thought this idea came from when Satan brought Jesus to the high mountain and offered to give him all of the world if Jesus would just bow down and worship him. Jesus never disputed that the world was Satan's to give Him.
But it is clear that Jesus declares Satan deposed (cast out of) any "ruler ship" position:

The seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.” 18And He said to them, “I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.

This is clearly a way of declaring what is otherwise crystal clear from the New Testament - Jesus has toppled Satan off the "throne" and initiated the Kingdom of God.

Given the many many times Jesus clearly announces He is initiating the Kingdom of God, people seem to cling to this notion that it is a "Kingdom of Satan". To be fair, they explain this by arguing - with no Biblical support at all, mind you - that Jesus' kingdom is a mysterious "spiritual" one, and that Satan remains King over the real world. That is a pure invention of course.
 
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Patmos

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John Calvin also wrote:

"..it is very wicked merely to investigate the causes of God's will. for his will is, and rightly ought to be, the cause of all things that are."..."For God's will is so much the highest rule of righteousness that whatever he wills, by the very fact that he wills it, must be considered righteous. When, therefore, one asks why God has so done, we must reply: because he has willed it. But if you proceed further to ask why he so willed, you are seeking something greater and higher than God's will, which cannot be found." Bk 3, Ch 23, s. 1
 
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