Calvinism, explained.

[ClothedInGrace]

"that Calvinism doesn't come from Calvin himself"
This is RIDICULOUS. I have never heard so much baloney. Dort, TULIP and most other confessions were LIFTED of the very pages of what Calvin wrote - 'The Institutes of the Christian Religion'.

As can be verified very simply thanks to google. A Calvinist really should Calvin's Institutes; IMO one is not qualified to call himself a Calvinist if he has NO IDEA about his mentor's works - including Luther or any confession.

For those that cannot be bothered:

JOHN CALVIN Said:

"I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now bound, all of Adam's children have fallen by God's will." Bk 3, Ch 23, s. 4

"With Augustine I say: the Lord has created those whom he unquestionably foreknew would go to destruction. This has happened because he has willed. Bk 3, Ch 23, s. 5

"Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam's fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? ... The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree." "And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision.. Bk 3, Ch 23, s. 7

"...salvation is freely offered to some while others are barred from access to it.." Bk 3, Ch 21, s. 5

"We call predestination God's eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others." Bk 3, ch 21, s. 5

"The very inequality of his grace proves that it is free." Bk 3, ch 21, s 6

"..we say that God once established by his eternal and unchangeable plan those whom he long before determined once for all to receive into salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, he would devote to destruction. ...he has barred the door of life to those whom he has given over to damnation." Bk 3, Ch 21, s. 7

"...God could foresee nothing good in man except what he had already determined to bestow by the benefit of his election,.." Bk 3, Ch 22, s.5

"... predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse." Bk 3, ch 22, s. 9

"...although the voice of the gospel addresses all in general, yet the gift of faith is rare." Bk 3, ch 22, s. 9

"Indeed many, ..accept election in such terms as to deny that anyone is condemned. But they do this very ignorantly and childishly, since election itself could not stand except as set over against reprobation. Bk 3, Ch 23, s 1.

"Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children." Bk 3, Ch 23, s. 1

"...it is utterly inconsistent to transfer the preparation for destruction to anything but God's secret plan." "..God's secret plan is the cause of hardening." B 2, Ch 23, s. 1

"But since he foresees future events only by reason of the fact that he decreed that they take place, they vainly raise a quarrel over foreknowledge, when it is clear that all things take place rather by his determination and bidding." Bk 3, Ch 23, s. 6

"For if predestination is nothing but the meting out of divine justice--secret, indeed, but blameless--because it is certain that they were not unworthy to be predestined to this condition, it is equally certain that the destruction they undergo by predestination is also most just. Besides, their perdition depends upon the predestination of God in such a way that the cause and occasion of it are found in themselves. For the first man fell because the Lord had judged it to be expedient; why he so judged is hidden from us." Bk 3, Ch 23, s. 8

"Man falls according as God's providence ordains, but he falls by his own fault." Bk 3, Ch 23, s. 8


All Quotations are from "THE INSTITUTES" of John Calvin, without alternation of any kind.

If it pleases you then I will stop calling myself a Calvinist, as people seem to think it means I take Calvin's word over the Bible's. Ultimately the Five Points come from the Bible; Calvin simply explained it in an easy way, and so the theology has his name stamped on it. So there you have it, I'll stop calling myself a Calvinist; I only did so people could know I believed the Five Points, but apparently there is some extra baggage I was unaware of.

So, does anyone here read Arminius?

 

[Patmos]

Predestination has been mentioned a lot in preceding posts and there are several 'definitions' expounded.

John Calvin is quoted below and can be verified by anyone to show what is posted has NOT been twisted.

"BUT I am not a John Calvin Calvinist", says a Calvinist here on CF. " Rather I believe in TULIP", or Dort or whatever.

Check the wording and you will see many times it is similar to what John Calvin wrote. Many time EXACTLY the same.

"We call predestination God's eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others." Bk 3, ch 21, s. 5

"..we say that God once established by his eternal and unchangeable plan those whom he long before determined once for all to receive into salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, he would devote to destruction. ...he has barred the door of life to those whom he has given over to damnation." Bk 3, Ch 21, s. 7


Calvinist writer R.C Sproul are me laugh.
He said that A Calvinist who does not believe in ALL 5 points is an euphemism for 'ARMINIAN'.

 

[Patmos]

If it pleases you then I will stop calling myself a Calvinist, as people seem to think it means I take Calvin's word over the Bible's.

Yes it does so please do. Thanks.

Ultimately the Five Points come from the Bible;

Ultimately, NO IT DOES NOT. You have either NOT read Calvin's Institutes OR you have NOT read the Bible.

Calvin simply explained it in an easy way, and so the theology has his name stamped on it. So there you have it,

There is nothing simple about Calvin. You speak in ignorance. So there YOU have it.

I'll stop calling myself a Calvinist; I only did so people could know I believed the Five Points, but apparently there is some extra baggage I was unaware of.

Better still, read a Bible.

So, does anyone here read Arminius?

Society of Evangelical Armenians has loads of them. Visit their website and you can find out what these guys - including Arminius ACTUALLY believe and teach.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Ultimately, NO IT DOES NOT. You have either NOT read Calvin's Institutes OR you have NOT read the Bible.

No, I have read the Bible; the five points are all there. Men are sinners; God elects them; Jesus dies for them; they are born again; they persevere till the end.

You don't think it is strange that I believe the five points yet have never read Calvin's work? Maybe it's because Calvinism doesn't need Calvin.

 

[Patmos]

Should they get several books along with the gospel? For further study to understand the simple gospel of death on the cross for the forgiveness of sin?

theology to e

n in simple term

 

[Marvin Knox]

So, then why would people be using this theology to explain salvation in simple terms in spreading the gospel, the Good News of Christ Jesus?

Should they get several books along with the gospel? For further study to understand the simple gospel of death on the cross for the forgiveness of sin?

I don't know of anywhere in the history of evangelism where the evangelist used predestination to explain salvation to a person to whom the gospel was being preached.

Can you provide one such sermon except for us where that was done? I'd love to know about it.

Thanks!

 

[Patmos]

No, I have read the Bible; the five points are all there. Men are sinners; God elects them; Jesus dies for them; they are born again; they persevere till the end.

Judas, King Saul....

You don't think it is strange that I believe the five points yet have never read Calvin's work? Maybe it's because Calvinism doesn't need Calvin.

Odd you say this. A troll in the Baptist thread claimed Calvinism does not teach Predestination.
Weird.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Judas, King Saul....

So you deny that God saves His children. Okay. Paul's confidence was in vain I guess:

Philippians 1:6
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Odd you say this. A troll in the Baptist thread claimed Calvinism does not teach Predestination.
Weird.

That is weird, considering the Bible teaches it.

Ephesians 1:5-6
In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

 

[Marvin Knox]

theology to eView attachment 172970 n in simple term

Perhaps you could field the same request I made of ToBeLoved above (#1526).

Thanks.

 

[Patmos]

So you deny that God saves His children. Okay. Paul's confidence was in vain I guess:

Philippians 1:6
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.


That is weird, considering the Bible teaches it.

Ephesians 1:5-6
In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

1. STOP telling me what I deny or DO NOT deny. Bearing false witness is a HUGE crime as far as Jesus is concerned. PACK IT IN.

2. Predestination as in the Arminian version. Good.

3. Here is the trolls post

.....
Calvinism has little to do with "predestination" or "foreordination". Seriously, you are way too caught up on those topics. In Calvinism, those things are of little importance. They are a sidenote.

And now you say in your previous post "Maybe it's because Calvinism doesn't need Calvin."

I am wondering if you are one and the same poster!

 

[Patmos]

Perhaps you could field the same request I made of ToBeLoved above (#1526).

Thanks.

Not quite sure what you are asking.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Okay Marvin, I challenge you to provide scriptures to establish the following from WCF. They should be easily available for you if you wish to pursue it.

I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

I certainly do not find any scriptures verifying the above. Maybe you will provide us scriptures to verify the 'divines'.

You're right - they are easily available for anyone to look up. They were demanded of the Westminster divines when they came back with their opinions of what the scriptures taught on these subjects.

In other words the scriptures that they used to arrive at their conclusions were published with the creed itself.

I told ToBeLoved that she could look them up and she told me that she already had her mind made up on the subject. Why on earth she asked for scriptural corroboration for the statements and then said that - I haven't the foggiest idea.

She wasted my time under a false presentation of her desires. That's why I broke it off with her. I'll do the same with you after this post goes to print.

If you want to refute the framers of the Westminster - reprint each scripture that they used and tell us why they were wrong in their conclusions.

If you think for one minute that I'm going to provide scripture after scripture for you so that you can refute them when they're readily available - you're absolutely crazy. Just as with ToBeLoved - I won't waste any more of my time with someone who can't be troubled to look things up for themselves.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

And now you say in your previous post "Maybe it's because Calvinism doesn't need Calvin."

I am wondering if you are one and the same poster!

I'm sure you are. I've already had a falling out with you, and I don't feel like doing it again. It is very clear that if someone doesn't fit your narrow view of Calvinism then they are considered liars. I've had enough of people on this forum using Calvin and other Calvinists against me as if they had any bearing on what I believe.

Let's stop and take a breather... I'll stop calling myself a Calvinist, and since I've stopped I really have no label.

You want to know what I believe? Here is what I believe:
1. The five Solas of the Reformation: Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Solus Christos, Sola Scriptura, and Soli Deo Gloria
2. The five points of Calvinism: Total Depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistable grace, and Perseverance of the saints

In case you are wondering, belief in the Bible (Sola Scriptura) and the gospel (Solus Christos, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia) are found in the five Solas.

I don't read Calvin or any other man's work: just the Bible. So let's not get worked up about whether I'm a Calvinist or not. I don't care what I am called anymore, as it just get's me into arguments.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Not quite sure what you are asking.

You seemed to be agreeing with what she said about Calvinists including teaching on predestination as a part of the salvation message. The cartoon you published was portraying that same sentiment about Calvinists and their message to the world.

I said the following to her:

I don't know of anywhere in the history of evangelism where the evangelist used predestination to explain salvation to a person to whom the gospel was being preached.

Can you provide one such sermon except for us where that was done? I'd love to know about it.

Since you seem to be saying the same thing about how Calvinists preach the gospel to the world that as she was - I'm asking the same of you that I asked of her.

Please show me where that has been done.

It certainly wouldn't be routine even if you do provide an example.

But at least I'll know that ToBeLoved and you aren't just making things up to portray the Calvinist message in a poor light.

Thanks.

 

[ToBeLoved]

theology to eView attachment 172970 n in simple term

Now this joke sums it all up for me.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Now this joke sums it all up for me.

Still waiting for those examples. (See post #1526)

 

[EmSw]

That's your false impression, something you want desperately to be true, so you have something to rail against. I rarely think of it, more times than not only because someone like you, who has such a distorted and skewed view of Reformed theology, keep trying to make an issue out of it with false statements, uninformed assumptions, and is obsessed with it like you are. The rest of the time, I don't think about it, nor do I need to. I have faith that things are unfolding exactly as God has ordained, and when I catch a glimpse of His Hand in a situation, I give thanks. I give thanks for His Salvation of me, and rest in it.

You, on the other hand, are obsessed with something that most people don't think about, but it seems that you are on a crusade to stamp out predestination, because you're worried that someone, somewhere, might believe it, and be thinking about it in a positive light.

Predestination is NOT the foundation of Calvinism. The T in the TULIP is the hinge on which the whole gate swings. Total Inability. Not UTTER Inability. Not UTTER Depravity. Total, meaning that the totality of man, his whole being, is affected by sin. Man is born in sin, a sinner at birth by nature, a nature which manifests itself at the earliest opportunity. Adam and Eve reproduced after their own kind, as with every other living thing. Their offspring were as they were, sinners.

And that sir, is based totally upon predestination.

 

[EmSw]

I'll agree that it's PART of the whole, but I believe Skala was right to say that it's only part and it's a mistake to focus on this part to the exclusion of what is probably more important. But agree or disagree with Skala, it's certain that he wasn't "confused" about it.

Then how is it that EVERYTHING was predestined, even to the smallest detail?

 

[Job8]

I am virtually certain the Bible does not say this. I think you are referring to a text where Satan is referred to as "god" of this world.

Satan is also called "the prince of the power of the air" and Christ did teach that there is a kingdom of darkness. Since there is ABSOLUTELY NO DARKNESS in God, He permits this kingdom of darkness to exist for a season. He ALLOWS it to exist, which does not mean that He created the kingdom of darkness.

 

[EmSw]

You're right - they are easily available for anyone to look up. They were demanded of the Westminster divines when they came back with their opinions of what the scriptures taught on these subjects.

In other words the scriptures that they used to arrive at their conclusions were published with the creed itself.

I told ToBeLoved that she could look them up and she told me that she already had her mind made up on the subject. Why on earth she asked for scriptural corroboration for the statements and then said that - I haven't the foggiest idea.

She wasted my time under a false presentation of her desires. That's why I broke it off with her. I'll do the same with you after this post goes to print.

If you want to refute the framers of the Westminster - reprint each scripture that they used and tell us why they were wrong in their conclusions.

If you think for one minute that I'm going to provide scripture after scripture for you so that you can refute them when they're readily available - you're absolutely crazy. Just as with ToBeLoved - I won't waste any more of my time with someone who can't be troubled to look things up for themselves.

So, predestination gets under your skin also. Why not just accept what God predestines for you and love it? Remember, we are only doing, even in the smallest detail, what God has predestined, yet you fight against His predestination so hard.

I am not a WCF follower, nor believer. If these 'divines' knew God's mind before all eternity, then we might have something. I will confess, I know nothing of what God thought before the foundation of the world. Maybe these 'divines' of yours were present with God before all eternity, and God told them all about predestination and TULIP. If so, hurry and call National Enquirer!