Calvinism and Abortion

SPF

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I already told you. Those who obey GOD abide with GOD, and GOD rewards them (with things like being drawn, etc.).
Right, I agree with that. But the question I have surrounds the fact that Jesus' conditional statement means that unless the Father draws them, they cannot come to Christ. Do you understand what conditional statements are?

You have an outcome: Come to Christ
You have a condition that must be met BEFORE the outcome can occur: Drawn by the Father.

So again, my question is why must these Believing Jews be drawn by the Father in order to come to Christ? You still haven't answered that.

That is the short answer. But it's not that the Father first draws a person at random or that GOD is changing an unregenerate heart out of the crowd here or changing a person's free will as Calvinism is suggesting.
Certainly not, you've outlined the context very clearly in who we are talking about. I understand who we are talking about, and accept the person that you believe the Father is drawing. But it doesn't change the fact that this Jew in question must be drawn by the Father in order to come to Christ. Why? Why must they be drawn? Why can't they come to Christ on their own? Why must a drawing by the Father occur?

Have you really accepted this as the context?
Yes. How many times can a person tell you that you're right before you accept it?

It doesn't sound like you agree because you are arguing for the words, “No one
I'm quoting the verse! I'm not making those words up!

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Furthermore, I'm agreeing with you on who Jesus is referring to when He says "no one" It's this person:

No, no, no. Your doing it again. You are saying seeking Jew, when this is a Jew who abides with GOD and or walks with GOD and has His favor already because this Jew OBEYS God.
Context champ. When I said seeking, I didn't mean they hadn't found God yet. I meant seeking in the same way you and I seek. I seek after a deeper relationship with Christ. I seek daily to become more like Christ. I seek daily to be conformed more to His Image. That is the context in which I was referring to the Jew in question. I fully accept your position on who Jesus is referring to in the passage. Can you just accept that and get onto answering my question?

It's a relationship with GOD that grants a person the ability to be drawn to Jesus because GOD abides and lives in their life. Without GOD in their life, they cannot know the deep things of GOD and or be guided fully by GOD.
Completely agree. The problem lies in the fact that Jesus lays out a conditional statement in which He says that the Jew in question cannot come to Him unless the Father draws him.

So why? Why must the Father draw the Jew? Do you not yet understand the question I'm asking? Is it really that hard of a question to understand?
 
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Right, I agree with that. But the question I have surrounds the fact that Jesus' conditional statement means that unless the Father draws them, they cannot come to Christ. Do you understand what conditional statements are?

You have an outcome: Come to Christ
You have a condition that must be met BEFORE the outcome can occur: Drawn by the Father.

So again, my question is why must these Believing Jews be drawn by the Father in order to come to Christ? You still haven't answered that.

Certainly not, you've outlined the context very clearly in who we are talking about. I understand who we are talking about, and accept the person that you believe the Father is drawing. But it doesn't change the fact that this Jew in question must be drawn by the Father in order to come to Christ. Why? Why must they be drawn? Why can't they come to Christ on their own? Why must a drawing by the Father occur?

Yes. How many times can a person tell you that you're right before you accept it?

I'm quoting the verse! I'm not making those words up!

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Furthermore, I'm agreeing with you on who Jesus is referring to when He says "no one" It's this person:

Context champ. When I said seeking, I didn't mean they hadn't found God yet. I meant seeking in the same way you and I seek. I seek after a deeper relationship with Christ. I seek daily to become more like Christ. I seek daily to be conformed more to His Image. That is the context in which I was referring to the Jew in question. I fully accept your position on who Jesus is referring to in the passage. Can you just accept that and get onto answering my question?

Completely agree. The problem lies in the fact that Jesus lays out a conditional statement in which He says that the Jew in question cannot come to Him unless the Father draws him.

So why? Why must the Father draw the Jew? Do you not yet understand the question I'm asking? Is it really that hard of a question to understand?

I made one last attempt to try and reach you. But it appears you are just repeating yourself and you are not really wanting to hear the answer of what I am trying to say. I think it is best we move on (and disagree in love and respect).

May God bless you.
 
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SPF

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I made one last attempt to try and reach you. But it appears you are just repeating yourself and you are not really wanting to hear the answer of what I am trying to say. I think it is best we move on (and disagree in love and respect).

May God bless you.
I'm repeating myself because you still refuse to directly answer the question. You're too concerned with rambling and pontificating on about how much you hate Calvinism to actually listen to what I'm asking.

I've agreed with 100% of everything you've said about the context under which Jesus is making His conditional statement. My question is very simple, very clear, and very basic - Why must the Father draw the Jew in question before he can come to Christ? Can you try answering that question without rambling on for 5 paragraphs about anything other than that question?
 
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I'm repeating myself because you still refuse to directly answer the question. You're too concerned with rambling and pontificating on about how much you hate Calvinism to actually listen to what I'm asking.

I've agreed with 100% of everything you've said about the context under which Jesus is making His conditional statement. My question is very simple, very clear, and very basic - Why must the Father draw the Jew in question before he can come to Christ? Can you try answering that question without rambling on for 5 paragraphs about anything other than that question?

Do you believe GOD guided Abraham who obeyed God?
Does GOD guide pagan unbelievers who reject GOD and refuse to obey Him?
What is the difference between the two?
By answering these questions, it will help guide you to have your answer.
 
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Also, do you believe GOD had a relationship with OT saints?
Do you believe GOD can have a relationship with unbelievers who reject Him?
Answering these kinds of questions will help to resolve your dilemma.
 
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If I tell a Calvinist that verse 45 (John 6:45) is referring to a Jew who has a relationship with GOD, they will be able to see that their bias Calvinistic view on verse 44 (John 6:44) is in jeopardy. They will of course do one of two options so as to protect their readings on the Canons of Dort or Calvnistic material that they have latched on to. They will either:

(a) Ignore verse 45, and focus their attention on verse 44, and or make mysterious statements.
(b) Say that verse 45 is not in reference to Jews who had a relationship with GOD the Father. They will then focus their attention either back on verse 44 to prove this, and or look at other verses in the Bible to make their case, or they will look to the original languages to try and reinterpret verse 45 (Acting like they are better equiped at understanding God's Word than the 47 translators who worked on the King James Bible).
 
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John 6:44 is saying that no man can come to GOD on their own terms. Meaning if they disobey God's Word or the Scriptures, then GOD is not going to abide in their life and they are not going to have a relationship with GOD in order to be guided by GOD.

John 6:45 is referring to the Jew who has HEARD and LEARNED of the Father (Suggesting that they have a relationship with GOD) so as to be guided by GOD to come to Jesus. They are guided or drawn by GOD to come to Jesus because they have a relationship with GOD the Father. Without this relationship, they cannot be drawn or guided by GOD.

It's that simple.

Having GOD in your life means you get the benefits (like being drawn, illuminated, etc.). How does one have GOD and or Jesus in their life? Jesus says if you keep my commandments, the Father and Jesus will make their home or abode in you (See: John 14:23). One of these commands is to believe on Jesus Christ (1 John 3:23).

Does it make any sense for GOD to command you to believe in Him if GOD is the One who makes a person to believe? Why give us a commandment if it is GOD who ultimately forces us to believe? It makes no sense. God gives us commands because we have a free will choice to either obey His commands or disobey them. For if a Robot was programmed to do a certain function and yet I commanded the robot to do what it was already programmed to do, it would be kind of pointless.

That's why Calvinism and or beliefs with Calvinistic leanings is crazier than a bag of cats.
 
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SPF

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John 6:45 is referring to the Jew who has HEARD and LEARNED of the Father (Suggesting that they have a relationship with GOD) so as to be guided by GOD to come to Jesus. They are guided or drawn by GOD to come to Jesus because they have a relationship with GOD the Father. Without this relationship, they cannot be drawn or guided by GOD.
Ok, I get it, and I accept what you're saying. So here's my question - Why must the Father draw this person to Christ? Do you get it yet? Jesus says that even this person that you're describing, this person who has HEARD and LEARNED of the Father - this person cannot come to Christ unless the Father draws him. Why?! That's my question - Why must the Father draw this person? Why can't they come to Christ without the Father drawing them? We know they can't because Jesus lays out a conditional statement about this person in verse 44. So why?!
 
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Ok, I get it, and I accept what you're saying. So here's my question - Why must the Father draw this person to Christ? Do you get it yet? Jesus says that even this person that you're describing, this person who has HEARD and LEARNED of the Father - this person cannot come to Christ unless the Father draws him. Why?! That's my question - Why must the Father draw this person? Why can't they come to Christ without the Father drawing them? We know they can't because Jesus lays out a conditional statement about this person in verse 44. So why?!

Because the one who knows GOD is going to be guided or drawn to Christ.
The one who does not know GOD is not going to be guided or drawn to Christ.
Do you believe that genuine men of GOD who walked with GOD and had a relationship with GOD are guided by GOD? GOD draws near to the person who draws near to them. That's why!
A person who walks with GOD gets certain benefits from GOD and or His direct working in their life because GOD is a part of their life.

It's the difference between believers and unbelievers.
It's the difference between those who walk with GOD and those who do not walk with GOD.

How does one abide with GOD? They obey His commandments (See: John 14:23).

The Jews were not coming to GOD on God's terms. Just read Matthew 23:23, and Luke 11:42.
 
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Step 1. Have faith in God's words, and Obey GOD.
Step 2. GOD lives in a person's life and or they have a relationsip with GOD.
Step 3. They are guided or drawn by GOD to fulfill God's will.
 
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SPF

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Because the one who knows GOD is going to be guided or drawn to Christ.
But Jesus says that in order to come to Him, they must be drawn by the Father. It's a conditional statement. So I understand what you're saying - that they will be drawn by the Father. My question is Why is it necessary for them to be drawn by the Father in order to come to Christ?

Do you believe that genuine men of GOD who walked with GOD and had a relationship with GOD are guided by GOD? GOD draws near to the person who draws near to them. That's why!
I certainly believe that. But that doesn't address my question. The person in question that Jesus is referring to is an already Father Believing and Hearing Jew, as you said. But Jesus makes a conditional statement that even these Father Believing and Hearing Jews needed to be drawn by the Father before they would be able to come to Christ. My question is why? You still haven't addressed the why.

The implication is that if the Father were to not draw them towards Christ that they would never come to Christ. Why? Why wouldn't they come to Christ on their own without the Father drawing them?
 
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But Jesus says that in order to come to Him, they must be drawn by the Father. It's a conditional statement. So I understand what you're saying - that they will be drawn by the Father. My question is Why is it necessary for them to be drawn by the Father in order to come to Christ?

I certainly believe that. But that doesn't address my question. The person in question that Jesus is referring to is an already Father Believing and Hearing Jew, as you said. But Jesus makes a conditional statement that even these Father Believing and Hearing Jews needed to be drawn by the Father before they would be able to come to Christ. My question is why? You still haven't addressed the why.

The implication is that if the Father were to not draw them towards Christ that they would never come to Christ. Why? Why wouldn't they come to Christ on their own without the Father drawing them?

I have answered it multiple times already. It's because the one who cannot come to Christ does not know GOD. A person can know GOD if they obey Him. If they obey, then they know GOD, and then they can be guided by GOD. You want a deeper answer than this, then I would suggest you ask GOD. This is the best answer that I can give and I think it satisfies most people. Your question is sort of like, “Why is the sky blue?” It just is how things are. God made it so that only those who know GOD can be guided by Him. It's like having a friend who is an expert navigator at sea. You can gain the benefits of your friend's navigational skills by your hanging out with him.
 
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But Jesus says that in order to come to Him, they must be drawn by the Father. It's a conditional statement. So I understand what you're saying - that they will be drawn by the Father. My question is Why is it necessary for them to be drawn by the Father in order to come to Christ?

I certainly believe that. But that doesn't address my question. The person in question that Jesus is referring to is an already Father Believing and Hearing Jew, as you said. But Jesus makes a conditional statement that even these Father Believing and Hearing Jews needed to be drawn by the Father before they would be able to come to Christ. My question is why? You still haven't addressed the why.

The implication is that if the Father were to not draw them towards Christ that they would never come to Christ. Why? Why wouldn't they come to Christ on their own without the Father drawing them?

Did the Jews that Jesus spoke to obey God's Word?
Yes, or no?
According to Matthew 23:23, and Luke 11:42, they did not obey GOD.
This is why Jesus was saying they could not come to Him in John 6:44.
John 14:23 says that if we keep His commandments, then both the Father and the Son will make their home in a person. Meaning, they can know GOD if they obey Him.
John 6:45 implies that there are certain Jews who know GOD, and thus they are guided or drawn by GOD in John 6:44.
The Jews who wanted to come to Jesus could not do so because they did not obey GOD, and thus did not have GOD in their life (so as to be drawn).
I mean, your question is sort of like: Why was Philip told by the Holy Spirit to go to the chariot (Where the Ethiopian enuch was)? It's because Philip abided with GOD and he obeyed GOD. In an alternate universe: If Philip did not obey GOD, then He could not abide with the Spirit and be led by the Spirit.
 
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SPF

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John 6:45 implies that there are certain Jews who know GOD, and thus they are guided or drawn by GOD in John 6:44.
The problem I see with the conditional statement that Jesus gives is that it says that unless the Father draws these certain Jews to Christ, that they cannot/will not come to Christ. That seems problematic to me. The Father has to intervene, He has to do something in order for these Believing and Hearing Jews to come to Christ. They apparently cannot come to Christ on their own without the drawing of the Father. I just don't understand why they can't come to Christ without the Father drawing them. You don't seem to know either.
 
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The problem I see with the conditional statement that Jesus gives is that it says that unless the Father draws these certain Jews to Christ, that they cannot/will not come to Christ. That seems problematic to me. The Father has to intervene, He has to do something in order for these Believing and Hearing Jews to come to Christ. They apparently cannot come to Christ on their own without the drawing of the Father. I just don't understand why they can't come to Christ without the Father drawing them. You don't seem to know either.

As I said, it's the benefits of abiding with GOD and or having a relationship with Him. Your question is sort of like asking, “Why I am able to benefit from my friend who has navigational skills that I do not have?” The question is silly because you do not have the same knowledge and experience he does. You know that if you hang out with your friend, you can benefit from his experience and knowledge. On your own without any navigational experience, you cannot navigate properly.

You want some sort of next level super deeper meaning beyond why GOD guides believers. Is this something that GOD wants us to focus on according to His Word? The Scriptures do say that we look through a glass darkly. The Scriptures say that if we have all knowledge and understand all mysteries, and yet we do not have love, we are nothing. So the goal here should not be trying to figure out near impossible things (that God does not make clear in His Word), but it should be focused on love. Love of God, and the love of others. This starts if we obey God's commands. For Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
 
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SPF

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“Why I am able to benefit from my friend who has navigational skills that I do not have?”
It's not even close to that! The question is why can the Believing and Hearing Jew not come to Christ on their own accord? Why is the drawing of the Father a prerequisite to their coming to Christ? It's simple - unless the Father draws them to Christ, they will never come to Christ. Why?
 
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Bible Highlighter said:
As I said, it's the benefits of abiding with GOD and or having a relationship with Him. Your question is sort of like asking, “Why I am able to benefit from my friend who has navigational skills that I do not have?” The question is silly because you do not have the same knowledge and experience he does. You know that if you hang out with your friend, you can benefit from his experience and knowledge. On your own without any navigational experience, you cannot navigate properly.
It's not even close to that! The question is why can the Believing and Hearing Jew not come to Christ on their own accord? Why is the drawing of the Father a prerequisite to their coming to Christ? It's simple - unless the Father draws them to Christ, they will never come to Christ. Why?

And this is why you will not understand my answer. It's because you reject my answer and you are seeking for another answer that does not exist. You are reading John 6:44 in a vacuum, and you are imposing your own biases into the verse that ignores the rest of the Bible. So I think it is best we agree to disagree in love nad respect.

Good day to you.
I am moving on.
May God bless you.
 
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SPF

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John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

If there is anyone ridiculous enough to have followed along has some input on why the Father had to draw the one in question before they could come to Christ, I would love some help in understanding. Bible Highlighter's Biblical prejudice would never allow him to directly answer the question, I'm hoping this isn't the case for everyone else.
 
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John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

If there is anyone ridiculous enough to have followed along has some input on why the Father had to draw the one in question before they could come to Christ, I would love some help in understanding. Bible Highlighter's Biblical prejudice would never allow him to directly answer the question, I'm hoping this isn't the case for everyone else.

Okay. We are both technically off topic. Granted, I am a little more on topic because I am arguing against the illogical nature of Calvinism in John 6:44. But the main topic of this thread is technically about showing how Calvinism does not make sense in light of abortion (and what we know of Scripture). So unless your discussion is involved in this topic, you are ranting off topic and disrupting the thread of the OP. For you essentially said (by the use of other words) that you are not even arguing for the Calvinist position.
 
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