Calvinism and Abortion

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I don’t see how you did, can you copy/paste where you believe you specifically answered this:

Yet, before they[believing Jews in question] can come to Christ they must first be nudged by the Father. Thus, the inverse is also true that unless the Father nudges them, they won't come to Christ. So again my question - Why must they be nudged by the Father to come to Christ?

Again let me ask - why must the Father FIRST nudge them? Why is the nudge necessary and required?

The illumination or nudging only happens as a result of a person acting upon faith in God's Word (the Holy Bible). Why is it necessary for this illumination in order to believe? Because God and His Word abide together. If we act upon His Word, God gives us spiritual eyes to see. The more we are obedient to God, the more God will give us the understanding on His Word. Those who perish are perishing because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:10). Even Jesus said to the Father, “Your word is truth.” (John 17:17).

 

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I don’t see how you did, can you copy/paste where you believe you specifically answered this:

Yet, before they[believing Jews in question] can come to Christ they must first be nudged by the Father. Thus, the inverse is also true that unless the Father nudges them, they won't come to Christ. So again my question - Why must they be nudged by the Father to come to Christ?

Again let me ask - why must the Father FIRST nudge them? Why is the nudge necessary and required?

Not counting those who will worship the beast in the future, do you believe GOD is able to refuse to illuminate and or draw a person in this life?
If so, what would be the reason? Do you have a Bible verse to explain it?
Do you think that a person can genuinely act in faith towards hearing God's Word (the Holy Bible), and God would refuse to illuminate and or draw a person to Jesus? If so, do you have a Bible verse to explain it?

I believe faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
Meaning, if a person acts and or believes God's Word, then God will open their eyes to see and draw them to Jesus. That is what God's Word (the Bible does). It draws people to Jesus Christ. To deny this is to deny the Bible and it's core message. For if I preach Christ crucified, and salvation in Him by my Bible, and people listen, they will be saved. They will be drawn by God and illuminated to the truth of Jesus Christ if they obey God's Word by receiving the gospel and receiving Jesus. The Jews that Jesus spoke to were not able to come to Jesus because they were not obeying the words of Jesus (i.e. the words of God the Father). Remember, Jesus said that the Pharisees ignore the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy (See again: Matthew 23:23, and Luke 11:42). This is why these Jews were blind. They did not obey God's words. For Jesus says in John 8:47, he that is of God obeys God's words.

 

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@SPF

Are you saying that you knew of the truth that Jesus saves without ever hearing anything from the Bible ever in your life time? Was it not hearing the gospel message from the Bible that led you to salvation in accepting Jesus as your Savior? This is at the heart of what John 6:44-45 is saying. No man can come to Jesus without first hearing and learning from God the Father's words (i.e. the Holy Bible, or Scripture). You could have seen Scripture in a billboard sign when you were younger, or seen Scripture preached to you in a Christian movie, or from a TV preacher on the radio, etc.; These are all seeds that can be planted and even watered by others before you were able to act upon the truth in coming to Jesus Christ. But without the Bible (i.e. without God the Father's words), you would have no chance in knowing about Jesus. If you were born in a tribe in some remote jungle, you would need missionaries to tell you about Jesus according to the words in the Holy Bible in order to believe. Jesus is saying in John 6:44-45 that these Jews were not obedient to God's Word. This is the reason why they were unable to be illuminated by God to see Jesus as their own Messiah. They stumbled at the Word being disobedient.

“And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.” (1 Peter 2:8).

 

[SPF]

The nudge or illumination of the truth is the reward for a person acting in faith in God's Word. For Romans 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. Again, are you aware that when Jesus spoke He spoke the words of God the Father? This means that when Jesus spoke, He was teaching the words of the Father. So if a person hears and or obeys the words of Jesus, they are in essence hearing and learning of the Father. So if a person obeys the words of Jesus, they can know the truth in coming to Jesus because they are acting upon God's Words. For John 8:47 says he that is of God hears God's words. Most Christians today are for disobedience of God's Word and they say it is impossible to obey God. While I am not saying that obeying God is easy, it is possible because His Word says so. This is why many Christians do not understand what God's Word says because they stumble at God's Word.

Again let me ask - why must the Father FIRST nudge them? Why is the nudge necessary and required?

 

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Again let me ask - why must the Father FIRST nudge them? Why is the nudge necessary and required?

I also call it an illumination. But this illumination of the truth of God's Word does not happen before a person believes and or obeys God's Word. When a person believes God's Word, and they intending to act upon what His Word says by seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ and in trusting what He did for them with His death, burial, and resurrection, then God moves in their life and changes their heart. When they obey this gospel message, they are given an illumination. They receive, a love, joy, and peace that they have never known before. The answer you seek is that GOD abides with His Word. God is faithful to His Word. God's Word is a lamp unto our feet, and a light unto our path (Psalms 119:105).

 

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The Symbiotic Relationship Between
The Living Word, & the Communicated Word:

1. Christ is good (John 10:11, John 10:14), and the word is good (1 Kings 2:42).
   
   
2. Christ is the truth (John 14:6), and the word is the truth (John 17:17).
   
   
3. Christ is called Faithful and True (Revelation 19:11), and the word is called faithful and true (Revelation 22:6).
   
   
4. Christ is pure (1 John 3:3), and the word is pure (Proverbs 30:5).
   
   
5. Christ is incorruptible (Acts of the Apostles 2:27), and the word is incorruptible (1 Peter 1:23).
   
   
6. Christ abides forever (John 12:34), and the word abides forever (1 Peter 1:23).
   
   
7. Christ’s name: “Jesus” is above all names (Which would include God’s name) (Philippians 2:9-10), and the word is above God’s name (Psalms 138:2).
   
   
8. Christ has flaming eyes of fire (Revelation 19:12), and the Word is like a fire (Jeremiah 23:29).
   
   
9. Christ can burn things like a fire (Matthew 3:12), and the word can burn things like a fire (Luke 24:32).
   
   
10. Christ can be eaten (John 6:57), and the word can be eaten (Jeremiah 15:16).
    
    
11. Christ is like the discovery of treasure (Matthew 13:44-46, cf. 2 Corinthians 4:7-10), and the word is like the discovery of treasure (Psalms 119:162).
    
    
12. Christ is the light (John 8:12), and the word is light (Psalms 119:105).
    
    
13. Christ is life (John 14:6, 1 John 5:12), and the word is life (John 6:63).
    
    
14. Christ is the living bread (John 6:51), and the word is the living bread (Matthew 4:4).
    
    
15. Christ is eternal life (Romans 6:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, 1 John 5:20) and the word is eternal life (John 6:68) (cf. Matthew 24:35, John 6:63).
    
    
16. Christ quickens (makes alive) (John 5:21), and the word quickens (makes alive) (Psalms 119:50).
    
    
17. It is by Christ which makes the gospel possible (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and it is by the word which makes the gospel possible (1 Peter 1:25).
    
    
18. Christ is near to men (Acts of the Apostles 17:27) (Revelation 3:20) (Psalms 145:18), and the word is near to men (Romans 10:8).
    
    
19. Christ discerns the heart (Matthew 9:4, Luke 9:47), and the word discerns the heart (Hebrews 4:12).
    
    
20. Christ can get men through a storm (Mark 4:35-41), and the word can get men through a storm (Matthew 7:24-25).
    
    
21. Christ sanctifies (John 17:19), and the word sanctifies (John 17:17).
    
    
22. A person can stumble over Christ (Romans 9:33, 1 Peter 2:5-8), and a person can stumble over the word (1 Peter 2:8).
    
    
23. Christ will judge men (John 5:22), and the word will judge men (John 12:48).
    
    
24. Christ’s bones were never broken (John 19:36 cf. Psalms 34:20), and the word is never broken (John 10:35).
    
    
25. Believers are told to seek after Christ (Matthew 28:5, Mark 16:6), and believers are told to seek after the word (Isaiah 34:16).
    
    
26. Christ is our hope (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Colossians 1:27, 1 Timothy 1:1), and the word is our hope (Psalms 130:5).
    
    
27. Believers are to have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16), and believers are to meditate (use their mind) upon the word (Psalms 119:148, 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV).
    
    
28. Christ is to be heard and obeyed (Matthew 7:24), and the word is to be heard and obeyed (James 1:22).
    
    
29. The love of God is within Christ (Romans 8:39), and keeping the word places the love of God within us (1 John 2:5) (Also see John 14:23).
    
    
30. Christ is the way to the living waters, which is the Holy Spirit (John 7:37-39), and the washing of the water of the word (Ephesians 5:25-27) (which is obedience to God) is the way to having the Spirit (Acts of the Apostles 5:32).
    
    
31. Christ is like the foundation that is a part of a house (1 Corinthians 3:9, 1 Corinthians 3:11), and He is like a rock (1 Corinthians 10:4), and the obeying the word is like a house built upon the rock (Matthew 7:24).
    
    
32. Believers are to follow after the steps of Christ (1 Peter 2:21), and believers are to order their steps in the word (Psalms 119:133).
    
    
33. Christ breathed the Spirit upon his faithful chosen (John 20:22), and the word is “inspired by God” (i.e. God breathed) for the benefit of his faithful chosen (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
    
    
34. Christ is the way to having the fruits of righteousness (Philippians 1:11), and the word is the way to being instructed in righteousness so to be perfect unto all good works (fruits) (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
    
    
35. Christ can abide in us (John 15:4-7) (Ephesians 3:17) (Philippians 4:13), and the word can abide in us (John 15:7, Psalms 119:11).
    
    
36. Christ dwells in our hearts (Ephesians 3:17), and the word dwells in our hearts (Colossians 3:16).
    
    
37. Believers can be hidden in Christ (Colossians 3:3), and the word can be hidden in believers (Psalms 119:11).
    
    
38. Christ is always with us (Matthew 28:20), and the word is always with us (Psalms 119:98).
    
    
39. Christ can make our joy full (John 15:11), and the word can make our joy full (1 John 1:4).
    
    
40. Believers’ hearts rejoice with Christ (John 16:22), and believers’ hearts rejoice with the word (Jeremiah 15:16).

The communicated word of God that we have today is the Bible.

“So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.” (Isaiah 55:11).​

Jesus (the Living Word) was sent by the commandment (mouth) of the Father. Jesus said and did everything the Father told Him to do (John 12:49) (John 14:31).

What is interesting is that the Living Word accomplished that which the Father commanded Him to do and to prosper (accomplish) that thing He sent to do (i.e. Jesus suffered on the cross, and said, “It is finished” and died for man’s sins). Jesus was risen three days later, and ascended to the Father. God’s Word (the living Word) did not return void by whom the Father sent.

The communicated Word can also be sent out and not return void, as well. For many have believed and have stayed faithful to what God’s Word says.

In the creation: The Word made flesh (John 1:1, John 1:14) (i.e. Christ) created everything. In the beginning God spoke words to bring forth the creation in six days (Genesis 1:1-31).

So in the beginning was the Living Word, and the communicated Word.

In the end of this sinful world: Christ will return (Revelation 19:11-21) and a sharp sword will proceed from His mouth. This sword could be the “sword of the Spirit,” (Which is the Word of God) or it could be symbolic of such (Ephesians 6:17).

So in the end there will be the Living Word, and the communicated Word.

For at Christ’s return: His name is called The “Word of God.” (Revelation 19:13) (Living Word).

On His thigh, and vesture is a name written (words) “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” (Communicated Word).

Jesus was beaten to a pulp and crucified on a tree.

The Word we have today (the Bible) is a result of pulp made from a tree.

Jesus was the Word made flesh (covered in skin).

The Word we have today (the Bible) is popular to be available covered in skin (leather).

Words on the page hang on this tree (paper) (the Bible),
just like the Living Word hung on a tree (the cross).

 

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When I received a tract called, “This Was Your Life” I believed those words in Scripture. I felt convicted of my sins by what the Word of God said. I believed what God's Word was saying, and God was opening my eyes to the truth of His Word. But it wasn't until I came before the Lord Jesus and sought forgiveness Him (i.e. acting upon God's words) whereby I received more of an illumination of the truth of Jesus. After I accepted Christ, I received a love, joy, and peace that I had never known before. I was able to come to Jesus because I was responding to the drawing of God by the fact that I was intending to obey His Word in the next few seconds. I was learning of the Father by hearing the gospel message before I called out to the Lord Jesus, and received Christ as my personal Savior. Now, can God illuminate our understanding? Yes. But only if we seek after God (Which is to obey His Word).

“And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.” (Jeremiah 29:13).

For a drawing, and or an illumination is only possible if somebody is seeking to obey God and or seeking to find God. God will come into our life if we seek to follow Him on His terms, and not our own terms.

 

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Again let me ask - why must the Father FIRST nudge them? Why is the nudge necessary and required?

There is no such thing as the Father FIRST having to nudge or draw a person (before they believe or obey His Word). There is no illumination or nudge if we do not believe His words, or if we never even heard of His Word (the Bible). It is ONLY when we believe and obey His Word when GOD comes into our life and moves to open our eyes to the truth. You want there to be a nudge or illumination without faith in God's Word (the Bible). For you keep focusing on this drawing from God as being separate from His Holy Word. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). Not sure if you understand the parable of the sower or not in Matthew 13, but the seed is the communicated Word of God and Jesus is the sower. We receive the words of the Bible in order for us to grow and have life in God's kingdom. To believe and obey God's Word brings God into our life (With it's subsequent drawings, or illuminations, etc.). Believe and obey God brings GOD into our life. That is how it works. The Jews were disobedient to God's Word. That is why they rejected their Messiah.

 

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@SPF

My encouragement is for you to watch this video by Alan Ballou.

 

[SPF]

I also call it an illumination. But this illumination of the truth of God's Word does not happen before a person believes and or obeys God's Word. When a person believes God's Word, and they intending to act upon what His Word says by seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ and in trusting what He did for them with His death, burial, and resurrection, then God moves in their life and changes their heart. When they obey this gospel message, they are given an illumination. They receive, a love, joy, and peace that they have never known before. The answer you seek is that GOD abides with His Word. God is faithful to His Word. God's Word is a lamp unto our feet, and a light unto our path (Psalms 119:105).

It would be easier to wrangle cats than to get you to stay on topic. The level at which you pontificate and dive at every rabbit trail is the stuff of legends. Not to mention it kills any chance of meaningful dialogue. You clearly just want to listen to yourself.

This response and every single following post doesn’t address the question.

There is no such thing as the Father FIRST having to nudge or draw a person (before they believe or obey His Word).

Except Jesus says there is. He clearly says to the Jews that they can’t come to Him unless the Father FIRST draws them. It’s plain and clear and unambiguous. Why deny it? Why must the Father first draw these believing Jews to Christ?

You want there to be a nudge or illumination without faith in God's Word (the Bible).

I don’t want there to be anything other than what the Word says. I’m trying to wrap my head around Jesus’ words and you for some reason don’t want to address them.

 

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It would be easier to wrangle cats than to get you to stay on topic.

Well, these guys do not seem to have any trouble wrangling cats.

The level at which you pontificate and dive at every rabbit trail is the stuff of legends. Not to mention it kills any chance of meaningful dialogue. You clearly just want to listen to yourself.

I can say the same for you. I have asked you plenty of questions and you did not answer them, either. You just keep repeating yourself in regards to John 6:44 like a broken record. You assume FIRST there is a drawing before anything else, but John 6:45 says that this drawing is not first. You highlight the word FIRST as if to say that this is the truth of how things work, when it is not.

This response and every single following post doesn’t address the question.

Except Jesus says there is. He clearly says to the Jews that they can’t come to Him unless the Father FIRST draws them. It’s plain and clear and unambiguous. Why deny it? Why must the Father first draw these believing Jews to Christ?

Not just any believing Jews. These are Jews who have HEARD and LEARNED of the Father (Which implies a relationship with GOD the Father). Before you said seeking Jews. Now you are saying believing Jews. So which is it? Again, John 6:44-45 is using other words that if we are obedient to His Word (i.e. Hear and Learn of the Father), then God can move in our life to draw, illuminate, etc.; Romans 10:17 says faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. So it's NOT first a drawing without us being obedient to the Word. You seem to not understand what John 6:45 says. For you are stuck in a feedback loop in John 6:44 and you cannot escape it. You are reading this verse in isolation and not in context to any other verses.

I don’t want there to be anything other than what the Word says. I’m trying to wrap my head around Jesus’ words and you for some reason don’t want to address them.

I did address your main question. I am explaining to you that God moves in a person's life when they obey God. Jesus says, “If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” (John 14:23). If a person obeys God's Word, then God lives in a person and illuminates, and draws them towards spiritual things and or truths. You are saying that John 6:44 is a drawing FIRST and it's not saying that because verse 45 says that they heard and learned of the Father (Which suggests a relationship with God). A person who has a relationship with God is going to be guided, drawn, illuminated because they walk with God. That is not something that is forced upon them because they made the choice to hear and learn God's Word by obeying it. So I am not sure how many times I have to keep explaining this in different ways in order for you to get it. But you seem to be stuck in a Calvnist feedback loop involving John 6:44 and you cannot escape it. You cannot see what my answer actually says. You think I did not even answer you (Which is pretty silly). But again, you ask things from a Calvinistic fictional universe that does not exist. Remember before about the fictional cat questions I told you about before? Such questions are loaded and fictional because there are no green and or purple cats. Just as your question is fictional in that your starting point is false. For your question assumes things that do not exist in the Word of God. Yes, it's true, no man can come unto Jesus unless the Father draws Him (speaking of the Jew), but this is ONLY in view of a Jewish believer who has a relationship or walk with GOD (John 6:45). Men who have a walk with God are guided by God. I should not even have to tell you such a basic thing. It's Christianity 101. You act like John 6:44 is some kind of lack of free will on part of these believing Jews. But they are already committed to following God by hearing and learning of the Father already. They already made the free will choice to follow God. They are drawn by God because God lives in them and they walk with God. For how else would a person hear and learn from God?

 

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@SPF

I see what you are trying to do. You want me to answer in saying that a person needs GOD working in their life in order to be illuminated, drawn, and or guided towards God as a part of the attempt to show that God enables a person in order to see, be drawn, and or be guided by God before they take any kind of action towards God. The fact that you said there is no free will, and that this drawing happens FIRST before anything else suggests that GOD is the One who chooses to enable a person outside of any decision man makes. You are attempting to sneak in Calvinism through the backdoor (by any means necessary) by such an argument, but it will not work. Sure, has God sent dreams to unbelievers? Yes he has. We see this in Genesis. Has God made men who were seeking to kill king David to prophesy? Yes. Are there exceptions to the rule on how God operaters like with Saul (Paul)? Yes. Saul was headed in the wrong direction, and the Lord Jesus revealed Himself to Saul (Paul). God can make Himself known to a person in a big way. But most people did not have an encounter like Paul did. Most have to take God's Word by faith and believe in it in order for God to move in their life (This is what John 14:23 is about). Yes, I believe the Spirit helps to convict a person of their sin. Yes, I believe Jesus draws all men unto Him. But that does not mean a person cannot resist God's conviction and or resist His drawing. Jesus sought to gather Israel like a hen gathers it's chicks beneath it's wings, but they would not allow Jesus to do so (See: Matthew 23:37). So I am not denying that God can awaken our eyes to spiritual truth. But at the end of the day, it is up to the person to accept that truth or not. Their free will is not being overriden by God (Which is what you attempt to be pushing secretly). For if this was not the case, you would be agreeing with me. Neither am I saying that man can learn spiritual truth without God, either. But we have free will. We still can resist God even after we know of the truth. For if we willfully sin after we received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin (See: Hebrews 10:26). In addition, there are many Scripture verses which teach one can fall away from the faith proves this truth, as well. God does not change or enable a person's will to believe that is contrary to a person's previous will or free will choice. God does not force Himself upon mankind to have a relationship with man. If such were the case, then we would see everyone living in perfect harmony with God. For God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). The fact that God was grieved over the sinfulness of man in the time of the global flood proves God allows man to retain his own free will choices to follow Him or not. Only 8 people were on board that Ark. The rest of the world made their own choice to resist God and they paid the price for that decision. God did not make those who perished in the flood to resist Him. If such were the case, then God would not have been grieved over their wickedness if God forced them to remain in rebrobate state as a part of His good and sovereign will and decree.

 

[SPF]

I can say the same for you. I have asked you plenty of questions and you did not answer them, either.

Well of course, because I'm not running down every rabbit trail you run at lightning speed towards. After quoting a post of mine and not responding to it, you typically make 3 more posts, with each one less and less on topic. So no, until we've actually addressed the topic at hand, I'm not going to run down the 1,000 rabbit trails you create.

You just keep repeating yourself in regards to John 6:44 like a broken record.

Yes, because you refuse to address the passage head on.

You assume FIRST there is a drawing before anything else, but John 6:45 says that this drawing is not first. You highlight the word FIRST as if to say that this is the truth of how things work, when it is not.

For the most part I've accepted all your personal interpretations on this passage (particularly verse 45). But this statement of yours is simply false.

In 6:44, Jesus makes a conditional statement. The word "unless" is specifically used, and specifically means that there is an outcome that is dependent upon a condition. Just look at the verse, thankfully this isn't ambiguous.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Outcome: Come to Jesus
Unless
Condition: Father draws them.

The word Scripture uses here for "unless" is eh-an. It is a conditional particle. It's used well over 200 times, and can mean before, but, except, when, etc... Jesus is making a conditional statement.

You need to acknowledge that Jesus is making a conditional statement. You have not acknowledged that this is what Jesus is doing.

The conditional statement necessarily means that something must happen FIRST (the condition) BEFORE something else happens (the outcome).

So in your next reply, will you acknowledge that Jesus is making a conditional statement?

Now, I agree that context is important, and I have completely accepted the context that you have laid out.

In John 6, Jesus is replying to grumbling Jews (v.41). They were saying things like "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?"

Jesus responds to these grumbling Jews. He gives them the conditional statement in verse 44, and then quotes Isaiah in verse 45.

I have accepted your understanding of who Jesus is referring to in verse 45, that's perfectly fine, and it doesn't somehow negate the conditional statement of verse 44 or make the conditional statement magically not be a conditional statement.

You have yet to address the conditional statement Jesus makes in verse 44.

You seem to not understand what John 6:45 says.

I've accepted what you say it does as what it is. Go with that.

I did address your main question. I am explaining to you that God moves in a person's life when they obey God.

We aren't talking about any person, we are talking, in context, about who Jesus is addressing in Chapter 6. Let's stick there for the moment.

The fact that you said there is no free will

You're going to have to quote me on that, because I have certainly never said that. This is the third or fourth time where you've tried to claim that I have said something that I haven't. My position on free-will has been the same for quite a long time, and I did actually say what it was earlier in this topic.

I said that at all times people will always act according to their greatest inclination. That's free-will.

 

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Can a person come to God without God? Well, a person cannot be saved without GOD. But GOD is not changing or enabling a person's free will to believe differently than their previous will. GOD can awaken a person's eyes to the truth, but that does not mean they cannot resist such a truth.

John 6:44-45 is not a truth that deals with an unbeliever becoming a believer (like Calvinists claim it means). John 6:44-45 is talking about those who already walk with GOD because they heard and learned of the Father. Yes, they need GOD to be guided, drawn to Jesus, but that is a part of having a natural relationship with GOD. This does not prove they had no free will in the matter. The fact that we have to endure to the end and fight the good fight of faith proves that we have free will. The fact that believers and even great men of GOD can sin proves we have a will that can act contrary to GOD's will. GOD does not force man to be a certain way or enable them to be changed whereby they cannot refuse something. GOD is not into the forcing or bullying business; And that is exactly what you are proposing if you believe GOD does something that goes beyond man's free will in regards to choosing GOD in some way.

 

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Well of course, because I'm not running down every rabbit trail you run at lightning speed towards. After quoting a post of mine and not responding to it, you typically make 3 more posts, with each one less and less on topic. So no, until we've actually addressed the topic at hand, I'm not going to run down the 1,000 rabbit trails you create.

Yes, because you refuse to address the passage head on.

For the most part I've accepted all your personal interpretations on this passage (particularly verse 45). But this statement of yours is simply false.

In 6:44, Jesus makes a conditional statement. The word "unless" is specifically used, and specifically means that there is an outcome that is dependent upon a condition. Just look at the verse, thankfully this isn't ambiguous.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Outcome: Come to Jesus
Unless
Condition: Father draws them.

The word Scripture uses here for "unless" is eh-an. It is a conditional particle. It's used well over 200 times, and can mean before, but, except, when, etc... Jesus is making a conditional statement.

You need to acknowledge that Jesus is making a conditional statement. You have not acknowledged that this is what Jesus is doing.

The conditional statement necessarily means that something must happen FIRST (the condition) BEFORE something else happens (the outcome).

So in your next reply, will you acknowledge that Jesus is making a conditional statement?

Now, I agree that context is important, and I have completely accepted the context that you have laid out.

In John 6, Jesus is replying to grumbling Jews (v.41). They were saying things like "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?"

Jesus responds to these grumbling Jews. He gives them the conditional statement in verse 44, and then quotes Isaiah in verse 45.

I have accepted your understanding of who Jesus is referring to in verse 45, that's perfectly fine, and it doesn't somehow negate the conditional statement of verse 44 or make the conditional statement magically not be a conditional statement.

You have yet to address the conditional statement Jesus makes in verse 44.


I've accepted what you say it does as what it is. Go with that.


We aren't talking about any person, we are talking, in context, about who Jesus is addressing in Chapter 6. Let's stick there for the moment.

You're going to have to quote me on that, because I have certainly never said that. This is the third or fourth time where you've tried to claim that I have said something that I haven't. My position on free-will has been the same for quite a long time, and I did actually say what it was earlier in this topic.

I said that at all times people will always act according to their greatest inclination. That's free-will.

First, in post #457 you deny that the Jews cannot come to Christ out of their own free will.

You said, I quote:

“Yet, despite all that, these God following Jews still need the Father to draw them FIRST, before they can come to Christ. Why? Why can’t they come to Christ out of their own free will? That, is what I find interesting.” ~ SPF.
​

You are also appear to support Calvinistic interpretation on John 6:44 by your saying that quoting teachers are great Theologians.

Post #377 the following,

“You do realize that the greatest Christian theologians of our history all held to a strong view of God's providence. This would include Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, Edwards. And more recently Sproul, Piper, and Geisler.” ~ SPF.​

I recognize the names as Calvin, Sproul, and Piper. These names should not be recognized as being great theologians because they teach Calvinism or Unconditonal Election. So your quoting them as great means you appear to side with the view that John 6:44 does not include free will in any way by man. But John 6:45 says that these Jews heard and learned of the Father. That was the free will that they exercised in order to be drawn by the Father.

 

[SPF]

John 6:44-45 is not a truth that deals with an unbeliever becoming a believer (like Calvinists claim it means). John 6:44-45 is talking about those who already walk with GOD because they heard and learned of the Father.

I completely accept your interpretation. The people that Jesus is referencing are specifically and exclusively the Jewish people who were following the law, and who believed and had a relationship with God. It is these Jews that God would be drawing to Christ. They hadn't come to Christ yet because Christ had not yet come. But now that Christ was here, and now that Christ was revealing Himself, God would be drawing these specific Jews you described to Jesus.

But....

In 6:44, Jesus makes a conditional statement. The word "unless" is specifically used, and specifically means that there is an outcome that is dependent upon a condition. Just look at the verse, thankfully this isn't ambiguous.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Outcome: Come to Jesus
Unless
Condition: Father draws them.

The word Scripture uses here for "unless" is eh-an. It is a conditional particle. It's used well over 200 times, and can mean before, but, except, when, etc... Jesus is making a conditional statement.

You need to acknowledge that Jesus is making a conditional statement. You have not acknowledged that this is what Jesus is doing.

The conditional statement necessarily means that something must happen FIRST (the condition) BEFORE something else happens (the outcome).

So in your next reply, will you acknowledge that Jesus is making a conditional statement?

This does not prove they had no free will in the matter.

I never suggested they didn't. I never suggested they couldn't refuse the drawing of the Father. You need to stop assuming you know what I believe, it'll make the conversation go a lot better.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I completely accept your interpretation. The people that Jesus is referencing are specifically and exclusively the Jewish people who were following the law, and who believed and had a relationship with God. It is these Jews that God would be drawing to Christ. They hadn't come to Christ yet because Christ had not yet come. But now that Christ was here, and now that Christ was revealing Himself, God would be drawing these specific Jews you described to Jesus.

But....

In 6:44, Jesus makes a conditional statement. The word "unless" is specifically used, and specifically means that there is an outcome that is dependent upon a condition. Just look at the verse, thankfully this isn't ambiguous.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Outcome: Come to Jesus
Unless
Condition: Father draws them.

The word Scripture uses here for "unless" is eh-an. It is a conditional particle. It's used well over 200 times, and can mean before, but, except, when, etc... Jesus is making a conditional statement.

You need to acknowledge that Jesus is making a conditional statement. You have not acknowledged that this is what Jesus is doing.

The conditional statement necessarily means that something must happen FIRST (the condition) BEFORE something else happens (the outcome).

So in your next reply, will you acknowledge that Jesus is making a conditional statement?


I never suggested they didn't. I never suggested they couldn't refuse the drawing of the Father. You need to stop assuming you know what I believe, it'll make the conversation go a lot better.

Problem. You think that is the only condition. It's not. I am not denying what John 6:44 says. I believe whole heartedly that before the cross that John 6:44 was true. After the cross: John 12:32 is now the new truth in town. For Jesus now draws all men unto Himself. Before the cross: I believe that no man could come to Jesus without the Father drawing them but the CONDITION is verse 45 that says that these are Jews who HEARD and LEARNED of the FATHER (Suggesting they had a walk with GOD and that they KNEW GOD). These were not unbelievers being zapped in order to believe. These were believers who walked with GOD. This makes sense because GOD naturally gudies believers. Did not GOD guide Abraham, Moses, and others? Why? Because they knew GOD.

The problem is that if you isolate verse 44 without verse 45 you don't get the whole truth. You make a condition out of only the information present in verse 44 without taking into account the condition of verse 45. Sure, you backhandly throw in verse 45, but you really are not driving home this point as a part of your point. Therein lies the problem.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@SPF

Do you believe the Jews that Jesus refers to in verse 45 ever made a free will decision beforehand so as to choose GOD when they first HEARD the Father for the first time in their life? Now, I am not suggesting that GOD was not moving upon their life, and I am not saying GOD did not illuminate the truth for them. I am saying did they make a free will decision with GOD showing them the truth about Him by His Word?

Before, you suggested there was no free will involved when the Father draws these Jews (Who heard and learned of the Father) to JESUS. Sure, I agree that without GOD and or without the Father's drawing, they could not come to JESUS. No doubt about it. But does that mean they were being forced against their own free will? No. Does that mean they could not resist GOD? Well, I think that kind of believers that Jesus is referring to our sold out believers. They already made a choice to follow God in the fact they walked with Him. They heard and learned of the Father. Meaning, those who are currently hearing and learning of the Father will be guided by GOD the Father to Jesus Christ. It does not mean that a person cannot resist GOD. We do not isolate verses out of context to the rest of the Bible.

 

[SPF]

I am not denying what John 6:44 says. I believe whole heartedly that before the cross that John 6:44 was true.

Ok great, let's stick with that then. Your belief is that what Jesus is saying in chapter 6 in in specific and exclusive reference to Jews who were living before the cross. That's fine, I can accept that.

After the cross: John 12:32 is now the new truth in town. For Jesus now draws all men unto Himself.

But this isn't who Jesus is talking about right? So we can put a pin in that because it's essentially off topic and isn't who or what Jesus is talking about in chapter 6.

Before the cross: I believe that no man could come to Jesus without the Father drawing them but the CONDITION is verse 45 that says that these are Jews who HEARD and LEARNED of the FATHER (Suggesting they had a walk with GOD and that they KNEW GOD).

Ok great! So my question is simple - Why did the Father need to draw them the Christ? Why couldn't they, on their own, without the drawing of the Father come to Christ? Why was the drawing necessary?

You acknowledged right there where I quoted that verse 44 outlines a condition where no man could come to Jesus without [FIRST] the Father drawing them. Remember, it's a condition, clear as day. Something must happen FIRST for the outcome of the condition to be met.

So since you believe that the specific Jews that Jesus referenced had to be drawn by the Father FIRST before coming to Christ - my question is why?

These were not unbelievers being zapped in order to believe.

Of course not, they are the believing Jews you've stated are the context. I agree with you. Let's just stick with that, no need to mention people that aren't involved.

These were believers who walked with GOD.

Got it, and agree. But the condition in verse 44 doesn't go away. It isn't a meaningless and empty statement by Jesus.

 

[SPF]

Do you believe the Jews that Jesus refers to in verse 45 ever made a free will decision beforehand so as to choose GOD when they first HEARD the Father for the first time in their life? Now, I am not suggesting that GOD was not moving upon their life, and I am not saying GOD did not illuminate the truth for them. I am saying did they make a free will decision with GOD showing them the truth about Him by His Word?

Certainly I believe that. That would align with my understanding of free will.

Before, you suggested there was no free will involved when the Father draws these Jews (Who heard and learned of the Father) to JESUS.

Seeing as I believe in free will, I would never do such a thing!

Sure, I agree that without GOD and or without the Father's drawing, they could not come to JESUS. No doubt about it.

Great! I'm glad to hear it! These Jews in question were incapable on their own, no matter how much reading, sacrificing, or seeking they did to come to Jesus on their own without FIRST the Father drawing them. I'm glad you can accept that! Progress!

But does that mean they were being forced against their own free will? No.

Certainly not!

We do not isolate verses out of context to the rest of the Bible.

Certainly not!