Calvin quote

[Hammster]

So why you think that:

a) the nature of fish is to swim. To punish it for it is not just

b) the nature of man is to sin. To punish him for it is just

Swimming isn’t sinful. It’s not rebellion against the Holy God.

 

[solid_core]

Swimming isn’t sinful. It’s not rebellion against the Holy God.

How can your nature you cannot change be rebellion?

The definition of rebellion itself includes choice.

 

[zoidar]

But that doesn’t change the fact that Bob is doomed from the womb.

He isn't doomed from the womb. What he is choosing in life determines what God knows.

 

[redleghunter]

Does not make much sense. What meaning is to tell a fish to fly over mountains, if the fish' nature is unable to do that? And punish the fish for it.

What if the fish were given wings against its nature? Would that change the equation a bit?

 

[solid_core]

What if the fish were given wings against its nature? Would that change the equation a bit?

Sure, the wings would become part of its new nature. And the willful refusal to use them could be justly punished.

 

[Hammster]

How can your nature you cannot change be rebellion?

The definition of rebellion itself includes choice.

Sin is rebellion. We chose to sin. Scripture doesn’t give any other option.


for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
— Romans 3:23

 

[Hammster]

He isn't doomed from the womb. What he is choosing in life determines what God knows.

Now you are insinuating that God learns things.

 

[solid_core]

Sin is rebellion. We chose to sin. Scripture doesn’t give any other option.


for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
— Romans 3:23

So which is it... do we chose to sin or is it simply our nature and we cannot do otherwise?

 

[zoidar]

Now you are insinuating that God learns things.

No, why?

 

[Hammster]

So which is it... do we chose to sin or is it simply our nature and we cannot do otherwise?

It’s our nature to choose to sin. It’s why we must be born again.

 

[Hammster]

No, why?

Yes, you are. You are saying that God knows something because He took in knowledge that He didn’t have before. Bob determines what God knows.

 

[zoidar]

Yes, you are. You are saying that God knows something because He took in knowledge that He didn’t have before. Bob determines what God knows.

No God had that knowledge before time began.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Sin is the issue here. We are all deserving of the lake of fire, and God would be just if He saved no one.

And this was all part of God’s premeditated plan which is why He made a way for everyone to be saved. The doctrines of total depravity along with unconditional grace means that God intentionally made laws that He knew man could not keep and provided a way for them to be forgiven for breaking these laws but only allowed some to receive forgiveness which in essence was intentionally premeditating the destruction of everyone who’m He did not elect for salvation. That basically makes God out you be the bad kid with the magnifying glass getting kicks out of burning ants to death. In order for God’s judgement and punishment to be just the individual MUST BE CAPABLE of complying with God’s requirements. Calvin’s theology says the unelected cannot.

 

[solid_core]

It’s our nature to choose to sin. It’s why we must be born again.

Ok, what do you mean by the term "nature", because if as something that determines us then it excludes choosing.

 

[Dave L]

I must assume God gave me free will to wander where my thoughts desire. If I do well with what I learn, good might happen. If I do evil it is my own fault. I do not have to tell you God made me fail.

Matthew 7:14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

God controls everyone's choices by the reasons he provides for you to base them on. = we freely choose what we want most based on the reasons he uses to determine our choices.

 

[Dave L]

He isn't doomed from the womb. What he is choosing in life determines what God knows.

= God is not all-knowing if he learns anything.

 

[Hammster]

And this was all part of God’s premeditated plan which is why He made a way for everyone to be saved. The doctrines of total depravity along with unconditional grace means that God intentionally made laws that He knew man could not keep and provided a way for them to be forgiven for breaking these laws but only allowed some to receive forgiveness which in essence was intentionally premeditating the destruction of everyone who’m He did not elect for salvation. That basically makes God out you be the bad kid with the magnifying glass getting kicks out of burning ants to death. In order for God’s judgement and punishment to be just the individual MUST BE CAPABLE of complying with God’s requirements. Calvin’s theology says the unelected cannot.

Or...God, in His mercy, chose to save some, knowing that if He saved no one, He’d be completely just.

The only way your understanding makes sense is if God owed it to man to give him a way out.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

“he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.”

Calvin’s Institutes, Book 3 Chapter 23 paragraph 6.

Assuming that the doctrine of Open Theism is false (which we must do in this forum), is this a true or false statement, and why?

Assuming that Paul in Ephesians 2:1-10 writes God's words, I read that we are all born dead, spiritually stillborn, and on our way to eternal separation from God (hell--verses 1-3). Then, it takes God's new birth by his grace through his gift of grace (verses 4-9) to enable us to go to heaven and into the new earth when Jesus returns. The result is our good deeds prompted by the Holy Spirit (verse 10). Thus, Calvin's statement is true.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Or...God, in His mercy, chose to save some, knowing that if He saved no one, He’d be completely just.

The only way your understanding makes sense is if God owed it to man to give him a way out.

He can’t be just if they were incapable of complying with His commandments.

 

[Hammster]

Ok, what do you mean by the term "nature", because if as something that determines us then it excludes choosing.

Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
— Ephesians 2:3

The reprobate’s nature is living by the lusts of the flesh, etc. They are children of wrath. It does not exclude choosing.

 

[zoidar]

= God is not all-knowing if he learns anything.

I agree!