Calvin quote

[solid_core]

I’m confused. Are you arguing that there’s something God can do that’s unjust?

No, I am saying that God is really just, not just just because He is God.

And therefore it cannot be that somebody is punished for what he is and what he cannot change. It would not be just.

 

[zoidar]

Okay. Let’s test that out. If God knows that Bob will never bow the knee to Christ in his lifetime, is there anything that can change that?

No

 

[Hammster]

No, I am saying that God is really just, not just just because He is God.

And therefore it cannot be that something is punished for what he is and what he cannot change.

He’s just because it’s His nature to be just. So everything He does is morally good.

 

[Hammster]

No

So Bob is doomed from the womb.

 

[Hammster]

And therefore it cannot be that somebody is punished for what he is and what he cannot change. It would not be just.

Can they be punished for sin?

 

[solid_core]

He’s just because it’s His nature to be just. So everything He does is morally good.

Yes, He is just because its in His nature, not because He is God. The source of His justice is not in His power/superiority.

Therefore He cannot declare that something is just when it is not really just.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, He is just because its in His nature, not because He is God. The source of His justice is not in His power/superiority.

Therefore He cannot declare that something is just when it is not really just.

I’m not arguing that He does.

 

[solid_core]

Can they be punished for sin?

Sure, but it must be in their power not do to that sin.

You cannot say to a blond girl - "from now on, its a sin to be a blond girl" and then punish her for it. The real justice must have real basics.

 

[Hammster]

Sure, but it must be in their power not do to that sin.

You cannot say to a blond girl - "from now on, its a sin to be a blond girl" and then punish her for it. The real justice must have real basics.

You are correct. You can’t do that. But we aren’t discussing hair color. We are discussing sin. And it’s our nature to be sinful.

 

[zoidar]

So Bob is doomed from the womb.

No

I have a recorded soccer game. I know the results, Bob's team lost. Does that mean Bob on the field never could win, because I have a recording of the tape. Of course what is on the tape depends on each player in the now, not on the tape.

God knows it because you choose it. It's not God knows it therefor you choose it.

 

[solid_core]

You are correct. You can’t do that. But we aren’t discussing hair color. We are discussing sin. And it’s our nature to be sinful.

Why do you think that when you say "sinful" instead of "blond", it changes the point?

 

[Hammster]

No

I have a recorded soccer game. I know the results, Bob's team lost. Does that mean Bob on the field never could win, because I have a recording of the tape. Of course what is on the tape depends on each player in the now, not on the tape.

If Bob will never be saved, there is no hope for him.

 

[Hammster]

Why do you think that when you say "sinful" instead of "blond", it changes the point?

Because being blond isn’t a sin. Rebellion against the creator is. I’m not sure why you would rather discuss hair color and fish as opposed to what the Bible says.

 

[zoidar]

If Bob will never be saved, there is no hope for him.

God knows it because you choose it. It's not God knows it therefore you choose it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

God never forced anyone to sin. So He isn’t the cause of their doom.

Sin is not the real issue here. Everyone has sinned. The issue is can someone repent and believe if they have not been granted grace by God? Sin is completely irrelevant at this point because anyone who does not repent and believe in Christ will burn in the lake of fire because all have sinned.

 

[solid_core]

Because being blond isn’t a sin. Rebellion against the creator is. I’m not sure why you would rather discuss hair color and fish as opposed to what the Bible says.

I am trying to give you analogies, because it seems to me that when you hear theological terms you are used to, then you think some other logical rules apply than normally.

 

[Hammster]

God knows it because you choose it. It's not God knows it therefor you choose it.

But that doesn’t change the fact that Bob is doomed from the womb.

 

[Hammster]

Sin is not the real issue here. Everyone has sinned. The issue is can someone repent and believe if they have not been granted grace by God? Sin is completely irrelevant at this point because anyone who does not repent and believe in Christ will burn in the lake of fire because all have sinned.

Sin is the issue here. We are all deserving of the lake of fire, and God would be just if He saved no one.

 

[Hammster]

I am trying to give you analogies, because it seems to me that when you hear theological terms you are used to, then you think some other logical rules apply than normally.

I don’t think that’s correct.

 

[solid_core]

I don’t think that’s correct.

So why you think that:

a) the nature of fish is to swim. To punish it for it is not just

b) the nature of man is to sin. To punish him for it is just