Cain and Abel

[Open Heart]

The ground was cursed, not Adam, Abel, Enoch or Noah.

This was ADAM's punishment, and through him, humanity's.

 

[ralliann]

We can say it that way. We can equally say that Abel bore Adam's curse.

I read one Rabbi ( Telushkin I think) use the term......
The collective nature of sin....
He did not give anymore than the term but I believe these would be good references for what He may have meant...
Similarities??
Jos 22:18 But that ye must turn away this day from following the LORD? and it will be, seeing ye rebel to day against the LORD, that to morrow he will be wroth with the whole congregation of Israel.
20 Did not Achan the son of Zerah commit a trespass in the accursed thing, and wrath fell on all the congregation of Israel? and that man perished not alone in his iniquity.
Ro 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Ro 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)



Nu 14:33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.

I think we also think too much as independent individuals. We who are in Christ are a community, his body, and we are all collective members of it. Just my thoughts.
blessings all

 

[Mercymessianicjudiasm]

So do you suspect Lamech was a false prophet?

No, I just believe there were more righteous saints than Noah, even Abel and Enoch. This is why Lamech could say what he did about his son, he never said that everyone until this time were toiling, or that Noah was the first to find grace.

 

[Mercymessianicjudiasm]

We can say it that way. We can equally say that Abel bore Adam's curse.

No Cain being the firstborn bore the burden from his father. Adam is called a son of G-d. Luke 3:38 and Hosea 14:6, Matthew 6:28-29.

 

[Mercymessianicjudiasm]

Well, a lot of assumptions need to be made then concerning the prophetic utterance of Lamech concerning Noah IMO. It is interesting to me anyway, that the narrative continues to tell us,,,Noah became drunk. For grape juice to become wine takes time to ferment. This seems to indicate plenty enough fruit available to allow the time for some to sit and ferment. As well as to change it into a form to become more a delicacy, rather than a daily staple of food.

The bible never said the grapes were fermented by Noah. Another presumption/assumption on your part.

 

[Mercymessianicjudiasm]

We can say it that way. We can equally say that Abel bore Adam's curse.

Again, where is it written that Adam was cursed? The bible says the ground was cursed. Genesis 3:17.

 

[Mercymessianicjudiasm]

No. Because they live in the moment.

What Yeshua is recommending to us in that text is that we not be overly concerned with what will happen in the future, but live in the moment. Psychology has shown that people who do this are much happier and more peaceful. The verse has nothing to do with having to work for a living.

Yeshua said the flowers of the field do not toil, labor or spin. Case closed. Please refer to Matthew 6:28-29.

 

[Mercymessianicjudiasm]

Where is the quote from Lamech? I'm just asking because I'm following this conversation.

It is sinful for the priests to drink fermented drink, or trampled grapes under foot. It is not sinful for the priests to eat fruit from the vine. Genesis 9:20-21. Noah planted a vineyard, he was a man that worked the soil like his father Adam.

 

[Mercymessianicjudiasm]

We can say it that way. We can equally say that Abel bore Adam's curse.

No the bible says that the ground was cursed, period. Genesis 3:17 Be very careful and warned, anyone who adds or subtracts from the scriptures shall be cursed. Rev 22:19

 

[Mercymessianicjudiasm]

I read one Rabbi ( Telushkin I think) use the term......
The collective nature of sin....
He did not give anymore than the term but I believe these would be good references for what He may have meant...
Similarities??
Jos 22:18 But that ye must turn away this day from following the LORD? and it will be, seeing ye rebel to day against the LORD, that to morrow he will be wroth with the whole congregation of Israel.
20 Did not Achan the son of Zerah commit a trespass in the accursed thing, and wrath fell on all the congregation of Israel? and that man perished not alone in his iniquity.
Ro 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Ro 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)



Nu 14:33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.

I think we also think too much as independent individuals. We who are in Christ are a community, his body, and we are all collective members of it. Just my thoughts.
blessings all

The ground was cursed, Genesis 3:17.

 

[Open Heart]

No the bible says that the ground was cursed, period. Genesis 3:17 Be very careful and warned, anyone who adds or subtracts from the scriptures shall be cursed. Rev 22:19

Yes the ground was cursed, but why? TO PUNISH ADAM AND HUMANITY.

 

[Open Heart]

Yeshua said the flowers of the field do not toil, labor or spin. Case closed. Please refer to Matthew 6:28-29.

Right. IOW, the lilies do not prepare for tomorrow. They live in the moment, using whatever is available in the now.

 

[Open Heart]

Again, where is it written that Adam was cursed? The bible says the ground was cursed. Genesis 3:17.

Read the context: WHY was the ground cursed? To punish Adam and through him all of humanity.

" in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life." Tell me how that is not a curse.

 

[Open Heart]

No Cain being the firstborn bore the burden from his father. Adam is called a son of G-d. Luke 3:38 and Hosea 14:6, Matthew 6:28-29.

" in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life." This is Adam's curse, and it passed from Adam to ALL of mankind.

 

[Open Heart]

I read one Rabbi ( Telushkin I think) use the term......
The collective nature of sin....
He did not give anymore than the term but I believe these would be good references for what He may have meant...
Similarities??
Jos 22:18 But that ye must turn away this day from following the LORD? and it will be, seeing ye rebel to day against the LORD, that to morrow he will be wroth with the whole congregation of Israel.
20 Did not Achan the son of Zerah commit a trespass in the accursed thing, and wrath fell on all the congregation of Israel? and that man perished not alone in his iniquity.
Ro 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Ro 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)



Nu 14:33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.

I think we also think too much as independent individuals. We who are in Christ are a community, his body, and we are all collective members of it. Just my thoughts.
blessings all

Our modern culture of individualism, especially in the United States, is foreign to the teachings of the Bible. People were thought of in terms of being parts of groups.

 

[mmksparbud]

OK---interesting discussions---plural as they go in many different directions then the Cain and Abel question.
It was pointed out in a Jewish website, and I can not remember where I got it from originally, then again I found another one---but--point is. In the bible when it states someone "knew" someone, it is meant sexually. The first time this is mentioned is when Adam knew Eve. The word is generally used before the statement, and she conceived. Adam knew Eve, and she conceived. Wherever possible I prefer to use the Mechanical translation--
Gen 4:1
and the human had known Hhawah his woman and she conceived and she brought forth Qayin, and she said, I purchased a man with YHWH ,
and she brought forth again his brother Hevel, and Hevel existed as a feeder of the flocks, and Qayin existed as a server of the ground,

This is one very rare time where it does not say and Adam again knew His wife and she conceived. It immediately states that "she brought forth again"--

from the Mechanical translation commentary:
"The name Cain is derived from the word קין (qayin), meaning to acquire or possess something. This is why Eve (chavah in Hebrew) said "I have gotten/acquired (qanah) a man" (Gen 4:1). The name Abel is derived from the word חבל (hhevel), meaning to be empty and is often translated as vain or vanity in the sense of being empty of substance.

In Hebrew thought ones name (Shem in Hebrew literally meaning breath or character) is reflective of one's character. The Hebraic meanings of the names of "Cain and Abel" are windows into their characters. Cain is a possessor, one who has substance while Abel is empty of substance.

Another interesting fact about these two that is often overlooked is that Cain and Abel are the first twins. In normal Hebraic accounting of multiple births the conception then birth of each child is mentioned such as in Genesis 29:32,33.

And Leah conceived and bore a son... She conceived again and bore a son...

But notice how it is worded in Genesis 4:1,2.

She conceived and bore Cain... And again, she bore his brother Abel.

There is only one conception but two births. The Hebrew word for "again" is "asaph" meaning to add something, in this case the birthing of Abel was added to the birthing of Cain. Cain and Abel were not just brothers, they were twins."
Commentary of the Torah


It is very interesting and I think I tend to agree with the above statement.

The right of I inheritance went from 1st born male to first born male. Usually in the bible only the first 2 or three males are mentioned, the rest are mentioned only if they are of some importance to the story line. Cain was first born, followed by Abel, Cain lost his birthright with the murder of his brother and being expelled from the family---so that place then fell to Seth. No other males need be mention except for then what Seth brought forth. Females never mentioned unless they were of some importance. The female child had no inheritance as it was, after all, a Patriarchal society. The looked for savior was to be male and every first born male was looked at as such. Adam and Eve could have had a boatload of females before Cain and Abel. There is nothing mentioned as to the age of Cain and Abel at the time of the murder. Abel and Cain could themselves have had many children by then. The both would have married their sisters. They could have been several hundred years old.

Even today, one woman can give birth to over 22 children in about a 40 year span. Eve was healthy, she could have spat out one kid a year--or more often, my husband has a brother 9 moths younger. And that does not take into account multiple births. Triplets and quadruplets today are not all that uncommon. One couple could easily populate a whole town for they had several hundred years of reproduction and their kids would have started in. Cain and Abel could have been grandfathers to thousands by the time this happened. To say they bred like rabbits I believe, would not be an understatement. Be fruitful and multiply was taken to heart. No one even gave thought to birth control.

 

[Mercymessianicjudiasm]

Yes the ground was cursed, but why? TO PUNISH ADAM AND HUMANITY.

The ground was cursed to punish the ground, Adam would labor or toil all the days of HIS life as YHWH said. How can it be for all of humanity if Noah found grace, Enoch pleased G-d, YHWH accepted Abel's offering? Yes even the flowers of the field who do not toil or labor, they are dressed in glory. The birds of the air do not sow or reap from the cursed ground, yet the Father takes care of them. Rose of Sharon. Cain who murdered his brother would toil and labor with the soil. In the days of Noah, the hearts of men were evil, only thinking of evil all the time; reason for the flood.

 

[Mercymessianicjudiasm]

" in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life." This is Adam's curse, and it passed from Adam to ALL of mankind.

The ground was cursed, the ground was punished. Yet the flowers out in the field blossom and grow; they are dressed in glory; Rose of Sharon.

 

[Mercymessianicjudiasm]

Our modern culture of individualism, especially in the United States, is foreign to the teachings of the Bible. People were thought of in terms of being parts of groups.

Thr birds of the air do not sow or reap, yet our heavenly Father takes care of them. The lillies of the valley, dressed in beautiful splendor, do not toil or labor. Abel was like one of those beautiful flowers, then he was taken away by his older brother.

 

[Mercymessianicjudiasm]

OK---interesting discussions---plural as they go in many different directions then the Cain and Abel question.
It was pointed out in a Jewish website, and I can not remember where I got it from originally, then again I found another one---but--point is. In the bible when it states someone "knew" someone, it is meant sexually. The first time this is mentioned is when Adam knew Eve. The word is generally used before the statement, and she conceived. Adam knew Eve, and she conceived. Wherever possible I prefer to use the Mechanical translation--
Gen 4:1
and the human had known Hhawah his woman and she conceived and she brought forth Qayin, and she said, I purchased a man with YHWH ,
and she brought forth again his brother Hevel, and Hevel existed as a feeder of the flocks, and Qayin existed as a server of the ground,

This is one very rare time where it does not say and Adam again knew His wife and she conceived. It immediately states that "she brought forth again"--

from the Mechanical translation commentary:
"The name Cain is derived from the word קין (qayin), meaning to acquire or possess something. This is why Eve (chavah in Hebrew) said "I have gotten/acquired (qanah) a man" (Gen 4:1). The name Abel is derived from the word חבל (hhevel), meaning to be empty and is often translated as vain or vanity in the sense of being empty of substance.

In Hebrew thought ones name (Shem in Hebrew literally meaning breath or character) is reflective of one's character. The Hebraic meanings of the names of "Cain and Abel" are windows into their characters. Cain is a possessor, one who has substance while Abel is empty of substance.

Another interesting fact about these two that is often overlooked is that Cain and Abel are the first twins. In normal Hebraic accounting of multiple births the conception then birth of each child is mentioned such as in Genesis 29:32,33.

And Leah conceived and bore a son... She conceived again and bore a son...

But notice how it is worded in Genesis 4:1,2.

She conceived and bore Cain... And again, she bore his brother Abel.

There is only one conception but two births. The Hebrew word for "again" is "asaph" meaning to add something, in this case the birthing of Abel was added to the birthing of Cain. Cain and Abel were not just brothers, they were twins."
Commentary of the Torah


It is very interesting and I think I tend to agree with the above statement.

The right of I inheritance went from 1st born male to first born male. Usually in the bible only the first 2 or three males are mentioned, the rest are mentioned only if they are of some importance to the story line. Cain was first born, followed by Abel, Cain lost his birthright with the murder of his brother and being expelled from the family---so that place then fell to Seth. No other males need be mention except for then what Seth brought forth. Females never mentioned unless they were of some importance. The female child had no inheritance as it was, after all, a Patriarchal society. The looked for savior was to be male and every first born male was looked at as such. Adam and Eve could have had a boatload of females before Cain and Abel. There is nothing mentioned as to the age of Cain and Abel at the time of the murder. Abel and Cain could themselves have had many children by then. The both would have married their sisters. They could have been several hundred years old.

Even today, one woman can give birth to over 22 children in about a 40 year span. Eve was healthy, she could have spat out one kid a year--or more often, my husband has a brother 9 moths younger. And that does not take into account multiple births. Triplets and quadruplets today are not all that uncommon. One couple could easily populate a whole town for they had several hundred years of reproduction and their kids would have started in. Cain and Abel could have been grandfathers to thousands by the time this happened. To say they bred like rabbits I believe, would not be an understatement. Be fruitful and multiply was taken to heart. No one even gave thought to birth control.

The name Abel means "breathing spirit" or vapor, vanity/empty or son. Cain and Abel could have been twins or born at the same time with Cain leaving the womb early possibly making Abel the firstborn. YHWH accepting Abel offering could have been a sign of this truth or birthright. The older shall serve the younger, Abel "fed" or served his flock; Genesis 25:23 and John 21:17.