Cain and Abel

[Eloy Craft]

Yes--of course it was a curse to Cain---but it affected the whole of creation also. It most certainly did not affect just Cain. Are you still saying that the curses affect was to him only---that only when he tilled the ground it would not yield it's strength? The first curse was to Adam and Eve:

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

It was said to them---but it affected the whole of creation also. The mark was to Cain alone to protect him from getting killed. The ground was cursed for Cain had spilled his brothers blood on it.
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Gen 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;

Cain is cursed from the earth. That dot doesn't connect to everyone. God isn't cursing the earth there.just Cain

 

[mmksparbud]

Cain is cursed from the earth. That dot doesn't connect to everyone. God isn't cursing the earth there.just Cain

And Adam and Eve were the only ones cursed and we should all be living forever and there should be no rain after all those people died and the earth should be one great big garden overflowing with produce. If you want to believe that, by all means believe it.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

Can you please state the name of the person that you claim to be the father of Cain, that Eve would have said the she had possessed from God? And please present your verse where that information is obtained from.

That is the whole point: no one can name the father of Cain unless they are speculating, because the canon does not ever name the father of Cain explicitly.

You must speculate to say Adam is Cain's father when every other first born male of note has their father named in the canon - and Cain had never had his father listen by name.

Cain is not the son of Adam, and the collective churches need to stop perpetuating the charade of sons of Seth = sons of God, and that there is no such thing as sons of God (angels) who mated with humans when the bible canon says otherwise. It is handicapping people.

 

[mmksparbud]

That is the whole point: no one can name the father of Cain unless they are speculating, because the canon does not ever name the father of Cain explicitly.

You must speculate to say Adam is Cain's father when every other first born male of note has their father named in the canon - and Cain had never had his father listen by name.

I have no idea why you choose to ignore the fact that the very first verse about it states that Adam knew Eve, she conceived and bore Cain.
That is quite a feat for it to be someone else as there was only Adam and Eve. I find no other name that God also created mentioned that could possibly be the father---can you state who that might be that Moses forgot to mention that God also created?? It doesn't say He made Adam and Frank and Eve. It can't be one the animals as they can not reproduce with a human for God made it clear at creation--after their kind---it can't be an angel as they are not our kind, we are created lower than the angels---who does that leave??

 

[Ygrene Imref]

I have no idea why you choose to ignore the fact that the very first verse about it states that Adam knew Eve, she conceived and bore Cain.
That is quite a feat for it to be someone else as there was only Adam and Eve. I find no other name that God also created mentioned that could possibly be the father---can you state who that might be that Moses forgot to mention that God also created?? It doesn't say He made Adam and Frank and Eve. It can't be one the animals as they can not reproduce with a human for God made it clear at creation--after their kind---it can't be an angel as they are not our kind, we are created lower than the angels---who does that leave??

You are missing the point that anyone of note:

HAD THEIR FATHER EXPLICITLY NAMED BY NAME - EXCEPT CAIN.

I now understand why you can't seem to grasp this motif, or understand the general intimations of other posters in context: you do not believe angels were the sons of God in Genesis 6, and/or you don't think angels can mate with humans.

If that is the case, then it was my mistake for continuing this conversation in the first place, as that is a fundamental point in accepting before arguing WHO Cain's father is, or may be (as it were.) There has been an assault on the human race since Eden; it is spiritual, and genetic. If you come to see how blue skies and puppies are distractions from a very important spiritual war involving spiritual entities and carnal entities, then hopefully we can even debate this further.

Christ never said angels can't marry/have sex, He said they have no need.

 

[mmksparbud]

You are missing the point that anyone of note:

HAD THEIR FATHER EXPLICITLY NAMED BY NAME - EXCEPT CAIN.

I now understand why you can't seem to grasp this motif, or understand the general intimations of other posters in context: you do not believe angels were the sons of God in Genesis 6, and/or you don't think angels can mate with humans.

If that is the case, then it was my mistake for continuing this conversation in the first place, as that is a fundamental point in accepting before arguing WHO Cain's father is, or may be (as it were.) There has been an assault on the human race since Eden; it is spiritual, and genetic. If you come to see how blue skies and puppies are distractions from a very important spiritual war involving spiritual entities and carnal entities, then hopefully we can even debate this further.

Christ never said angels can't marry/have sex, He said they have no need.

No--it was my mistake for continuing a conversation with someone who thinks that God made angels, who are only male--there are no females names---they do not marry according to Jesus--which you obviously do not believe He meant what He says---but they have unneeded reproductive organs which they can not use as they are all male and they are not of the same kind as humans---we are made lower than the angels, and Jesus Himself was made lower than the angels when He became human--what is the purpose of God having made them with unnecessary reproductive organs only to have them for ever unable to use them!!! God is not into useless. The original wording in the Hebrew for when God said everything was good--- is functional.

Gen 1:25
and Elohiym made living ones of the land to her kind and the beast to her kind and all of the treaders of the ground to his kind, and Elohiym saw that it was functional,

FUNCTIONAL: Definition: Fulfilling the action for which a person or thing is specially fitted or used, or for which a thing exists. A functioning within its intended purpose. Hebrew: טוב tov-masc.טובה to-vah-fem. AHLB: 1186-J(N) KJV Translations: good, better, well, goodness, goodly, best, merry, fair, prosperity, precious, fine, wealth, beautiful, fairer, favour, glad Strong's: #2896, #2898​

The following is an excerpt from the Ancient Hebrew Research Center Website.
What does "good" mean? The first use of this word is in Genesis chapter one where calls his handiwork "good". It should always be remembered that the Hebrews often relate descriptions to functionality. The word tov would best be translated with the word "functional". When looked at his handiwork he did not see that it was "good", he saw that it was functional, kind of like a well oiled and tuned machine. In contrast to this word is the Hebrew word "ra". These two words, tov and ra are used for the tree of the knowledge of "good" and "evil". While "ra" is often translated as evil it is best translated as "dysfunctional".

Angels---the word means messenger---that is their function---they are messengers of God. They were created to serve God---not to reproduce. Nowhere does it state that they were commanded to be fruitful and multiply---on the contrary Jesus said
Mat_22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

God only allows sex in the context of marriage. Angels are not functional for marriage.
​

If you would read up on the Hebrew language you would know what the Nephilim are and it quite simply means that these were mean of high standing, religious leaders, who followed God who went after women who did not follow God.

Here is Clarke's reference...
Genesis 6:4
[There were giants in the earth] npiliym , from naaphal , "he fell." Those who had apostatized or fallen from the true religion. The Septuagint translate the original word by gigantes, which literally signifies earth-born, and which we, following them, term giants, without having any reference to the meaning of the word, which we generally conceive to signify persons of enormous stature. But the word when properly understood makes a very just disinction between the sons of men and the sons of God; those were the nephilim , the fallen earth-born men, with the animal and devilish mind. These were the sons of God, who were born from above, children of the kingdom, because children of God. Hence, we may suppose originated the different appellatives given to sinners and saints, the former were termed gigantes (Greek), "earth-born", and the latter, hagioi , i.e. saints, persons not of the earth, or separated from the earth.
[The same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.] giboriym , which we render "mighty men", signifies properly conquerors, heroes, from gaabar , "he prevailed, was victorious." and °ansheey hashem , "men of the name," anthroopoi onomastoi , Septuagint; the same as we render men of renown, renominati, twice named, as the word implies, having one name which they derived from their fathers, and another which they acquired by their daring exploits and enterprises.
It may be necessary to remark here that our translators have rendered seven different Hebrew words by the one term giants, viz., nephilim. gibborim, enachim, rephaim, emim, and zamzummim; by which appellatives are probably meant in general persons of great knowledge, piety, courage, wickedness, etc., and not men of enormous stature, as is generally conjectured. (from Adam Clarke's Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1996, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.c...english-equivalent-for-nephilim-of-genesis-64


If, however, it makes soooo much more sense to you, and it fits the character of God more, for Him to have created a bunch randy angels lusting after human women and breeding with them ---believe it.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

No--it was my mistake for continuing a conversation with someone who thinks that God made angels, who are only male--there are no females names---they do not marry according to Jesus--which you obviously do not believe He meant what He says---but they have unneeded reproductive organs which they can not use as they are all male and they are not of the same kind as humans---we are made lower than the angels, and Jesus Himself was made lower than the angels when He became human--what is the purpose of God having made them with unnecessary reproductive organs only to have them for ever unable to use them!!! God is not into useless. The original wording in the Hebrew for when God said everything was good--- is functional.

Gen 1:25
and Elohiym made living ones of the land to her kind and the beast to her kind and all of the treaders of the ground to his kind, and Elohiym saw that it was functional,

FUNCTIONAL: Definition: Fulfilling the action for which a person or thing is specially fitted or used, or for which a thing exists. A functioning within its intended purpose. Hebrew: טוב tov-masc.טובה to-vah-fem. AHLB: 1186-J(N) KJV Translations: good, better, well, goodness, goodly, best, merry, fair, prosperity, precious, fine, wealth, beautiful, fairer, favour, glad Strong's: #2896, #2898​

The following is an excerpt from the Ancient Hebrew Research Center Website.
What does "good" mean? The first use of this word is in Genesis chapter one where calls his handiwork "good". It should always be remembered that the Hebrews often relate descriptions to functionality. The word tov would best be translated with the word "functional". When looked at his handiwork he did not see that it was "good", he saw that it was functional, kind of like a well oiled and tuned machine. In contrast to this word is the Hebrew word "ra". These two words, tov and ra are used for the tree of the knowledge of "good" and "evil". While "ra" is often translated as evil it is best translated as "dysfunctional".

Angels---the word means messenger---that is their function---they are messengers of God. They were created to serve God---not to reproduce. Nowhere does it state that they were commanded to be fruitful and multiply---on the contrary Jesus said
Mat_22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

God only allows sex in the context of marriage. Angels are not functional for marriage.
​

If you would read up on the Hebrew language you would know what the Nephilim are and it quite simply means that these were mean of high standing, religious leaders, who followed God who went after women who did not follow God.

Here is Clarke's reference...
Genesis 6:4
[There were giants in the earth] npiliym , from naaphal , "he fell." Those who had apostatized or fallen from the true religion. The Septuagint translate the original word by gigantes, which literally signifies earth-born, and which we, following them, term giants, without having any reference to the meaning of the word, which we generally conceive to signify persons of enormous stature. But the word when properly understood makes a very just disinction between the sons of men and the sons of God; those were the nephilim , the fallen earth-born men, with the animal and devilish mind. These were the sons of God, who were born from above, children of the kingdom, because children of God. Hence, we may suppose originated the different appellatives given to sinners and saints, the former were termed gigantes (Greek), "earth-born", and the latter, hagioi , i.e. saints, persons not of the earth, or separated from the earth.
[The same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.] giboriym , which we render "mighty men", signifies properly conquerors, heroes, from gaabar , "he prevailed, was victorious." and °ansheey hashem , "men of the name," anthroopoi onomastoi , Septuagint; the same as we render men of renown, renominati, twice named, as the word implies, having one name which they derived from their fathers, and another which they acquired by their daring exploits and enterprises.
It may be necessary to remark here that our translators have rendered seven different Hebrew words by the one term giants, viz., nephilim. gibborim, enachim, rephaim, emim, and zamzummim; by which appellatives are probably meant in general persons of great knowledge, piety, courage, wickedness, etc., and not men of enormous stature, as is generally conjectured. (from Adam Clarke's Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1996, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.c...english-equivalent-for-nephilim-of-genesis-64


If, however, it makes soooo much more sense to you, and it fits the character of God more, for Him to have created a bunch randy angels lusting after human women and breeding with them ---believe it.

Ok.

 

[Eloy Craft]

And Adam and Eve were the only ones cursed and we should all be living forever and there should be no rain after all those people died and the earth should be one great big garden overflowing with produce. If you want to believe that, by all means believe it.

Well, Adam and eve's sin was universal since Adam generated all mankind and Eve's womb produced Adam's generation. So everyone suffers from their sin. Cain killed his brother. That is the entire first generation of man dead or banished. Adam and Eve have to begin another generation of man.Cursing the new generation for what the banished one's sin doesn't serve justice. Adam and Eve's sin is just because in them all of us sinned. Not all of us sin in Cain.

 

[mmksparbud]

Look---if you all want to change the scriptures to make them say something you prefer--go for it.

Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Gen 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
Gen 4:12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

From the time of the curse on Cain, the ground would no longer yield it's strength---that is from that moment onward, nothing about the past. If you think that God is being unfair--you will have to take it up with Him. Cain wouldn't even be a farmer anymore--he was now a fugitive and a vagabond--he built a city. Cain spilled his brothers blood on the ground
Even after the flood--
Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
God holds blood sacred for it was to be His Sons blood that would be shed to save man. Cain had spilled his brother's blood on the ground. It is God's opinion on the matter that is important not ours. Rain--and bad weather descended-- on the whole planet after the flood. You may consider that also unfair as the problem was with the people, the animals and even the plant life at that time--but everyone since then has had to deal with all manner of bad weather ever since. Again--if you consider God unfair over it---take it up with Him.

 

[Eloy Craft]

If you think that God is being unfair--you will have to take it up with Him.

Why would I think that? I mean if you were God I might think that. Not to worry though I know I am reading what you think the scriptures mean.

Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Only Cain is mentioned here.

Gen 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;

Still just Cain suffrers the consequence of the curse,

Look---if you all want to change the scriptures to make them say something you prefer--go for it.

well nothing you quote is refering to any one else but Cain's relationship with the ground. If it said something like, " the ground is cursed " or the ground will not yeild it's strength to all born of woman" but God is saying these things happen to Cain. No one else.

en 4:12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

See, Cain is the only person the ground or the earth isn't going to serve. I'm sorry, I don't think they mean what you think they do.

 

[mmksparbud]

Why would I think that? I mean if you were God I might think that. Not to worry though I know I am reading what you think the scriptures mean.

I'm not the one that said it was unfair to curse the ground for everyone, instead of just Cain---You basically did.

Cursing the new generation for what the banished one's sin doesn't serve justice.

well nothing you quote is refering to any one else but Cain's relationship with the ground. If it said something like, " the ground is cursed " or the ground will not yeild it's strength to the all born of woman" but God is saying these things happen to Cain. No one else.

So you think that God set it up so that where wherever Cain went--only the patch of ground he worked, would not yield it's strength? He is now a vagabond----nomadic. Traveling around. And if he had other people till the ground, then it wasn't cursed??

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Nothing there says anything about it applying to anybody else. God is saying this to Eve and no one else.

Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Nothing there implies this is to anybody else but him--God is saying this to Adam, and one else.

Adam and Eve are the only persons that the thorns and thistles, and the pain and sorrow and the husband to rule over her--doesn't say anybody else. So, maybe these verses don't say what you think they do either.

 

[Eloy Craft]

I'm not the one that said it was unfair to curse the ground for everyone, instead of just Cain---You basically did.

I meant if it means what you think it would be unfair.

So you think that God set it up so that where wherever Cain went--only the patch of ground he worked, would not yield it's strength? He is now a vagabond----nomadic. Traveling around. And if he had other people till the ground, then it wasn't cursed??

No, I don't think the ground is effected at all. But the natural power of fertility is obedient to God and it won't allow anything Cain plants to be fertile..

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Every woman goes into Labor pains and children are born into sin

Nothing there says anything about it applying to anybody else. God is saying this to Eve and no one else.

Well, since she is the mother of everyone who was ever born it doesn't have to. Do you know about Original sin?

Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Same thing, the whole creation suffers because of Original sin. Adam's sin.Everyone is of the generation of Adam. Cain's offspring died out. Lost in the flood.

Nothing there implies this is to anybody else but him--God is saying this to Adam, and one else.

Everyone ever born has him aqs their father. Not Cain. All his sons died in the flood.

Adam and Eve are the only persons that the thorns and thistles, and the pain and sorrow and the husband to rule over her--doesn't say anybody else. So, maybe these verses don't say what you think they do either.

But marriage isn't easy is it? They aren't able to have the perfect marriage any more. The one we all yearn for but everyone knows there is no such thing. That's the curse on them. See it doesn't hacve to be said because they are everyone parents and we experience ourselves the imperfection they caused.

 

[mmksparbud]

I meant if it means what you think it would be unfair.

It does and so you do think God is unfair.

No, I don't think the ground is effected at all. But the natural power of fertility is obedient to God and it won't allow anything Cain plants to be fertile..

it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength;
It says the ground will not give her strength-- It's strength--it won't produce as much as it did. I suppose you think it yields it's strength now---talk to the farmers and you will find they don't think so.
So you think that wheree4ver Cain went only the plot of earth he tilled would not produce---then he should have been be ok as long as he got someone else to till it.

Every woman goes into Labor pains and children are born into sin

Those verses say nothing about anybody else having pain and sorrow -- just Eve---if cursing the ground for all because of Cain is unfair --- why is it fair for all women to have pain not just Eve? If the curse to Cain was just to him, why is the curse to Adam and Eve not just to them--the verses are all worded the same.

Well, since she is the mother of everyone who was ever born it doesn't have to. Do you know about Original sin?

The original sin was being disobedient to God--anything else is pure human philosophy and has no place in biblical concepts. The verses are still being directed to Eve and no one else.

Same thing, the whole creation suffers because of Original sin. Adam's sin.Everyone is of the generation of Adam. Cain's offspring died out. Lost in the flood.[/QUOTE

Original sin was being disobedient to God. The whole earth is in sin because they sinned and the nature is passed on. Everyone is cursed with sorrow and pain in childbirth because the curse wasn't just to Eve but to all of humanity.

Everyone ever born has him aqs their father. Not Cain. All his sons died in the flood.

Everyone has Adam as their father including Cain---I guess you, too, can not understand the concept--
Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

If you're saying that Satan was the father then the bible is lying. Either that, or Eve was raped in her sleep and didn't know it was Satan and not Adam--maybe he slipped her a mickey. She credited the child as coming from God. I doubt she'd have said that if she knew it had come from Satan. Please read post #286---angels can not reproduce, they were never created for that.

But marriage isn't easy is it? They aren't able to have the perfect marriage any more. The one we all yearn for but everyone knows there is no such thing. That's the curse on them. See it doesn't hacve to be said because they are everyone parents and we experience ourselves the imperfection they caused.

And who says it is?? What has that got to do with the concept that according to your way of thinking--the verses that curse Cain apply only to Cain because he is the only one mentioned and no one else. Applying your logic to the verses about Adam and Eve, they are worded exactly the same--said only to them and to no one else. You are completely inconsistent. If the ground being cursed with thorns and thistles applies to all of humanity, to the whole earth--(the ground is not passed down in childbirth)--then the ground being cursed with Cain is also applied to the whole earth. If bad weather was because of the evil people at that time--then by your logic, it should have stopped with their demise.

Cain can not be a part of the genealogy for the simple fact that after he murdered Abel he was expelled from the family---He was no longer the firstborn inheritor--the genealogy then went to Seth as the firstborn inheritor since Abel was dead. It goes from firstborn male to first born male. So the genealogy went from Adam to Seth to his firstborn male.---Had Cain not murdered Abel--it would have read from Adam to Cain, to his firstborn male.