• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Cain and Abel

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by visionary, Oct 30, 2017.

  1. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +4,848
    Messianic
    Were they born around the same time?
    [​IMG]
     
  2. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

    +2,582
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    First of all, I reject the whole idea of a serpent seed. This is a teaching whose roots are founded first in racism.

    Secondly, Cain came first... so if he were the "serpents seeds" then Eve was defiled and then gave birth to the one who would be in the genealogy of Messiah?

    Lastly, the Hebrew suggests they might have been twins. Genesis 4:1 has Cain being born, and in Genesis 4:2 it says, "then she bore again" and we get Abel. The word for "and she again" is yasaph which, when used as an adverb (and this is describing yalad, the next Hebrew word which means to give birth) means "to continue." So she gave birth to Cain and then continued and gave birth to Abel.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 2
    • List
  3. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

    +1,887
    Christian
    Married
    Hi visionary,

    This is one of those questions for which we can formulate ideas based on possibilities and what our own logical thoughts might consider, but there is no evidence on which one can definitively say how close in age the brothers were.

    There really isn't even any evidence to support that Cain and Abel were the first or only children that Adam and Eve had at that time. The account of the brothers is merely mentioned as a part of the history of wickedness that had come upon the earth as a result of sin being introduced into this created realm. God does seem to use the account to offer us a truth that seems to be an ageless truth. That sin is always crouching at our doorstep and desires each one of us also. That just like Cain, God asks us to overcome its power over us.

    One of the truths that I believe the account of Cain and Abel does tell us, if we believe that Adam and Eve were the first and only parents of mankind, is that there actually were other children that had been born to them prior to this event. Cain seemed to have a real concern that 'others' would try to kill him. Logically, Cain and Abel may have been fairly aged with a number of siblings who were living also as adults when this event took place.

    However, how many people may have lived upon the earth in the day that Cain killed Abel or their respective ages can only be guessed.

    God bless,
    In Christ, ted
     
  4. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +4,848
    Messianic
    ...she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. (Gen 4:1)
    she never said that she got the seed from Adam.
     
  5. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +4,848
    Messianic
    The Midrash Rabbah, Bereshith (Genesis) 24:6, trans. Rabbi Dr. H. Freedman and Maurice
    Simon (London: The Soncino Press, 1961) stated that Eve got Cain from the serpent seed.
     
  6. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +4,848
    Messianic
    Serpent beguiled Eve Genesis 3:13. The word "beguile" means "wholly seduced." Seduced is a sexual intimate term.
     
  7. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

    +2,582
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    That doesn't have to mean the Lord caused the conception... it means God is the giver of life and she was recognizing that. I consider my children gifts from the Lord and could say the Lord gave them to me and be accurate.

    But that still kills the "from the devil" idea. :)
     
  8. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +4,848
    Messianic
    Adam and Eve felt ashamed after their fall and took fig leaves to cover their private parts. Genesis 3:7 Excuse me, why didn't they cover their heads for their failure to be obedient? Was this an indication of the type of guilt? The first sexual encounter is always eye opening in more than just sexual. It opens up another world. The pandora's box of implications.
     
  9. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +4,848
    Messianic
    Cain was said to be "of the wicked one". 1 John 3:12
     
  10. Dave-W

    Dave-W Our six grandchildren Supporter

    +6,793
    Messianic
    Married
    US-Others
    And the peshat (plain reading) of the text disagrees with it.

    Gen 4.1 Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain,​

    That plainly says Cain was Adam's offspring.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  11. Dave-W

    Dave-W Our six grandchildren Supporter

    +6,793
    Messianic
    Married
    US-Others
    And in John 8:44, Our Lord called a certain group of Pharisees "sons of the devil." They were claiming to be "sons of God." He was not meaning that the evil one physically begat them; rather that their deeds were from hasatan. Similarly, they did not claim physical divine heritage; rather that they were doing the deeds of God the Father.
     
  12. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

    +2,582
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I am thinking you did not mean to quote me? I mean, we agree here and all. :)
     
  13. Dave-W

    Dave-W Our six grandchildren Supporter

    +6,793
    Messianic
    Married
    US-Others
    I wanted to address that specific point. I read it as an attempt to refute your point in #7:

    That doesn't have to mean the Lord caused the conception.
     
  14. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +4,848
    Messianic
    Hey look at this... Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain...

    The way this is translated, it make a point that Adam had sex with his wife and thus is the father of Cain. But look further because the word "knew" in Hebrew does have the meaning of "to have sex
    with" but this word could also mean something else. The word knew actually comes from two Hebrew words: yada and eth. The word yada not only means to "have carnal sex with," but also "to recognize," "discern," or "acknowledge." The word eth is untranslatable in English but it is generally related to "a sign," "a distinguishing mark," or an "omen." The Hebrew word for the translated word "conceived" also means "to already be with child." You know what they say.. ... "last to know" So let's retranslate Gen 4:1 using the other meanings.

    Genesis 4:1 And Adam discerned a distinguishing sign that had come upon Eve; that she was with child, and realized she was about to give birth to Cain...

    Now it sounds like Adam finally figured out that Eve was about to give birth. He probably had seen the animals giving birth after the females getting large in the belly and put two and two together.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
  15. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +4,848
    Messianic
    I want to add this... Apparently, when Eve first saw her baby, Cain, she may have
    assumed she had gotten him from somewhere else besides Adam otherwise why say it was from the "Lord".. According to the New Jerusalem Translation the verse translated from Hebrew little differently...

    ...I have gotten a man from an angel of the LORD.

    At that time, there were two groups of evil and the good angels... Besides the laws of God forbid cross breeding..
     
  16. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

    +2,582
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Even the peshat view can mean the Lord gave life, not that Eve conceived as Mary did. But this is getting into details I don't think either of us is all that concerned with here. The idea of a sepent's seed is an old racist argument... and racist not just meaning white and white but Jew and non-Jew as I have seen some try to teach that the Jews are the serpent seed. If Cain came first from Eve and he was the seed of satan, then Eve is defiled and how then can Messiah come from her line? And we still have the twins issue... the Hebrew does give cause to believe that Cain and Abel were twins.

    Shalom.
    Ken
     
  17. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +4,848
    Messianic
    Curiously enough, most of the punishments to Eve seemed to have some relation to pregnancy or childbirth. Why? Just bouncing thoughts on this...
     
  18. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

    +2,582
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Again, when my wife gave birth to our first child, I viewed the act as a gift from the Lord. But that doesn't mean the Lord caused her to conceive (as in the way Mary did) and yet I am using the same wording. Respectfully, I think you are forcing one meaning on that phrase when it doesn't have to mean just one thing.
     
  19. Dave-W

    Dave-W Our six grandchildren Supporter

    +6,793
    Messianic
    Married
    US-Others
    The word is from yad - "hand." so it is the sense that your hand knows something to do by rote.

    Derek Prince made the point that everywhere MARITAL (i.e. covenantal) sex was referenced, the Hebrew was "knew." And everywhere non-covenantal sex was referenced, the term was "to lie with."
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  20. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

    +2,582
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Her first punishment was death (ok, many hundreds of years later :) ) but the punishment of being redeemed through childbirth is also a blessing in that it is a promise that messiah would come from her travail... albeit 4000 years later. :)
     
Loading...