Cain and Abel

[ralliann]

The prodigal son and his older brother both received their full inheritance. Luke 15:12. After the prodigal son returned, he asked his father to treat him like one of his servants. However the Father celebrated instead and dressed his son in glory: robe, ring, sandals. The father tells his elder son that all he has is his, this part of the law go into effect after the father's death, he would become the crowned prince. The prodigal son is already a co-heir since they both received their inheritance. Romans 8:17.

No. A man's heirs serve and work to build the estate of their father. All that estate continues to increase, or decrease, until the testator dies. Gifting is to give a portion while living , meaning they no longer benefit from the growth of the Estate from that time on, until the father dies..
The prodigal son is not about inheritance but about the resurrection...However since you are bringing inheritance into it, let me put it this way.
Lets say the father has another 40 years to live? He gifts to one of his sons a portion of his estate as his sons due for his contribution in building the wealth.
Ga 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

That son no longer gets to benefit from the wealth which continues to be acquired unto his fathers estate. They are no longer serving to build the wealth, they already took their due pay as a servant deserves their due. Notice those sons "GIFTED" go away. They are no longer as a servant in their fathers house.
The father lives on for another 40 years. The remaining heirs do not inherit all their fathers estate until he dies. Say over the 40 years the estate becomes twice what it was when the son took from his portion while his father yet lived. That son is not entitled to any due from the additional wealth over those forty years. While the remaining heirs receive every penny accumulated over those 40 years. since heirs remain with their fathers to keep building their fathers Estate until death. It is their due of service.

 

[Open Heart]

The prodigal son is not about inheritance but about the resurrection

The father says the son was DEAD. It's like the expression "dead to me." The relationship had been severed, with or without the complete inheritance.

 

[ralliann]

The father says the son was DEAD. It's like the expression "dead to me." The relationship had been severed, with or without the complete inheritance.

Dead but alive again. Lost but now found. The underlying principal is rejoicing at the sons return in a repentant state.

 

[Lulav]

I think that the problem with understanding about the ground being cursed is that some believe that a sin had to have been committed by the thing that was cursed.

However if we look at an example from the 'NT' we see that Yeshua 'cursed' a certain fig tree. When they came back they saw it was withered. Now what did that Fig tree do? Nothing, it was symbolic. G-d uses his creation of earth and animals, plants and things to teach man, who is higher than all of this certain lessons.

So the Ground did nothing to 'deserve punishment' but it was 'Cursed' in the way that it did not bring forth fruit from the earth automatically without help from the man.

I actually don't think that the ground perse was cursed but the ability to grow things unencumbered was. This would also involved that before the 'fall' there was no death and that meant of the rest of creation as well. The Trees did not die, the plants, animals, etc. But now outside the garden that wasn't so.

All things were given a 'lifespan' and the living of these things was altered by many things. Environment for one thing, but also there was disease added, insects that would devour the dead things, as well as infect the plants, trees, animals, etc.

It was actually the death sentence that caused this chain reaction.

In the new earth, 'heaven' if you will, there will be no death. The Garden of G-d will be an ever alive place filled with immortal beings. There will be no life cycle, life will go on eternally, that is life for all things of G-ds creation.

 

[ralliann]

The father says the son was DEAD. It's like the expression "dead to me."

The relationship had been severed, with or without the complete inheritance.

It is not an inheritance.... It is his due as wages up to the point his fathers gives it. It is no different than what was done with Abraham's sons, which he sent away from his son Isaac. Why is it not be considered an inheritance? Because it all belongs to the father's household until he dies. This is why an heir differs nothing from a servant, as all that belongs to the father household and then is inherited upon death. That is when the fathers estate no longer accumulates any more substance to the father. That stops at his death. All accumulation of wealth thereafter belongs to the heir or heirs. Remember we spoke of individualism vs a collective? Same with a mans household. Same concept here

 

[ralliann]

It is not an inheritance.... It is his due as wages up to the point his fathers gives it. It is no different than what was done with Abraham's sons, which he sent away from his son Isaac. Why is it not be considered an inheritance? Because it all belongs to the father's household until he dies. This is why an heir differs nothing from a servant, as all that belongs to the father household and then is inherited upon death. That is when the fathers estate no longer accumulates any more substance to the father. That stops at his death. All accumulation of wealth thereafter belongs to the heir or heirs. Remember we spoke of individualism vs a collective? A mans household has members, same concept here

 

[ralliann]

I think that the problem with understanding about the ground being cursed is that some believe that a sin had to have been committed by the thing that was cursed.

However if we look at an example from the 'NT' we see that Yeshua 'cursed' a certain fig tree. When they came back they saw it was withered. Now what did that Fig tree do? Nothing, it was symbolic. G-d uses his creation of earth and animals, plants and things to teach man, who is higher than all of this certain lessons.

So the Ground did nothing to 'deserve punishment' but it was 'Cursed' in the way that it did not bring forth fruit from the earth automatically without help from the man.

I actually don't think that the ground perse was cursed but the ability to grow things unencumbered was. This would also involved that before the 'fall' there was no death and that meant of the rest of creation as well. The Trees did not die, the plants, animals, etc. But now outside the garden that wasn't so.

All things were given a 'lifespan' and the living of these things was altered by many things. Environment for one thing, but also there was disease added, insects that would devour the dead things, as well as infect the plants, trees, animals, etc.

It was actually the death sentence that caused this chain reaction.

In the new earth, 'heaven' if you will, there will be no death. The Garden of G-d will be an ever alive place filled with immortal beings. There will be no life cycle, life will go on eternally, that is life for all things of G-ds creation.

Also the ground produced things which were not good for food, for man. Often growing up instead of what was good for food (choking it) that men had to continuously pull these weeds out for food to grow.

 

[Lulav]

The prodigal son is not about inheritance but about the resurrection...

I think about this story as being about Israel.

Yeshua told this story and if we are careful to study Torah we will see that it is in reference to the longest story telling in Genesis.

As we know Genesis gives the history of the nation of Israel in 39 chapters. But of those 39 chapters and of all the people it mentions, the story of Joseph is the longest and most detailed, even moreso than Abraham.

Why is that?

It is because it continues the story of the reconciliation of man to G-d through his chosen people.

The story of Joseph tells about a brother who was sold into slavery, given up for dead by his father and when almost two decades later (2,000 years) his father finds out he is alive! It's as if he returned from the dead and it was all to save his family, his people. along with others of the nations.

 

[Mercymessianicjudiasm]

All of this happened because of Adam's sin. Therefore it was a punishment. And who is hurt by it? Humanity. Thus it is Adam/Humanity that is punished. Honestly, I shouldn't have to spell this out for you.

Since the ground was cursed, the ground was hurt. Common sense. If you curse anything you hurt what you have cursed, anything contrary to this very simple understanding would hurt the integrity of the scriptures.

 

[Mercymessianicjudiasm]

What sin did the ground do? Honestly! Could it be that you are continuing to argue simply because you don't want to lose?

The sin the ground committed is obvious, if you are sincere in your research. I do not understand your need to prove Adam was cursed, the ground was cursed, Canaan was cursed by Noah.

 

[mmksparbud]

Gen 317.....cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

That was the curse--the land was cursed with thorns and thistles and humanity was cursed, they had to work harder to get things to grow now. The earth was cursed again when Cain killed Abel.

Gen 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
Gen 4:12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

With Noah came the curse of bad weather, which had not been until it rained, weather also affects the ground---and a promise

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

The sin the ground committed is obvious, if you are sincere in your research. I do not understand your need to prove Adam was cursed, the ground was cursed, Canaan was cursed by Noah.

Could you explain the difference between the"fall" of Adam which resulted in his expulsion from the garden and his becoming mortal and being cursed?

 

[Open Heart]

The sin the ground committed is obvious

Then I'm sure you won't mind sharing it with me, since I specifically asked you this question.

 

[Open Heart]

Since the ground was cursed, the ground was hurt.

And humanity was hurt. Adam didn't have to toil in the Garden. Now everyone has to work in order to eat.

 

[Open Heart]

It is his due as wages up to the point his fathers gives it.

An inheritance is not wages. It says he asked his father for his his share of the estate. Sons did not work for wages. The passage of property was done by the guidelines of the Torah.

 

[Open Heart]

Dead but alive again. Lost but now found. The underlying principal is rejoicing at the sons return in a repentant state.

Yes. It is symbolic for his having lost his salvation, and then repenting and coming back into grace.

 

[ralliann]

An inheritance is not wages. It says he asked his father for his his share of the estate. Sons did not work for wages. The passage of property was done by the guidelines of the Torah.

The way I see this is.....You are first seeing this as an inheritance. An inheritance is only received by the death of the testator. What did the "gifted sons inherit? All go away from the estate (physical property) land, houses, servants (which also were inherited).
These sons are sent away from the Estate of their father. Abraham gave them no land or houses to dwell, or servants, livestock etc.
Ge 25:6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
Abraham continued to be an estate holder, and Isaac remained as an heir.

What does he divide to the son? His living.
Luke 15:12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living. No land, no houses.
What does he do? He does not have a share in the fathers land, or dwellings. So he goes away. This right here distinguishes him from an heir.....If he desired to stay around, he would have to purchase from his father a parcel of ground.
13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

Ga 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

 

[ralliann]

Yes. It is symbolic for his having lost his salvation, and then repenting and coming back into grace.

Yes, coming back into grace. Alive again, having hope in the eternal inheritance, not the earthly worldly one.

 

[ralliann]

Yes, coming back into grace. Alive again, now having hope in the eternal inheritance

 

[Mercymessianicjudiasm]

No. A man's heirs serve and work to build the estate of their father. All that estate continues to increase, or decrease, until the testator dies. Gifting is to give a portion while living , meaning they no longer benefit from the growth of the Estate from that time on, until the father dies..
The prodigal son is not about inheritance but about the resurrection...However since you are bringing inheritance into it, let me put it this way.
Lets say the father has another 40 years to live? He gifts to one of his sons a portion of his estate as his sons due for his contribution in building the wealth.
Ga 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

That son no longer gets to benefit from the wealth which continues to be acquired unto his fathers estate. They are no longer serving to build the wealth, they already took their due pay as a servant deserves their due. Notice those sons "GIFTED" go away. They are no longer as a servant in their fathers house.
The father lives on for another 40 years. The remaining heirs do not inherit all their fathers estate until he dies. Say over the 40 years the estate becomes twice what it was when the son took from his portion while his father yet lived. That son is not entitled to any due from the additional wealth over those forty years. While the remaining heirs receive every penny accumulated over those 40 years. since heirs remain with their fathers to keep building their fathers Estate until death. It is their due of service.

The sons of Abraham were sent away with gifts not wages. The scriptures never say that the younger son asked for his "wages" , that would make him only a servant not a son, a servant only has temporary residence (John 8:35) but a son lives in his fathers house forever. This is clear if you understand Torah law, this is why the older brother received his inheritance as well, the younger son receives only half what his brother receives, the elder son receiving a double portion. Wages are owed to an employee, not simply requested, the elder son never requested any wages he understood that he was much greater than a servant. In fact the prodigal never asked to become a servant in his fathers house until after he wasted his inheritance and was publicly ashamed. However when children commonly "are under legal age" they are often treated as servants/slaves receiving only an allowance learning their fathers business. They serve in hope of becoming co-heirs (Romans 8:17) in the future, servants have no such future hope or glory. Servants received payment as an OBLIGATION (Romans 4:4) not as a gift!