But it was not a Choice...

[WashedBytheSon]

Yet there is significant evidence that sexual oriention is an inborn trait.

What does not exist is any evidence that sexual oriention is a choice.




Are you approving of the idea of mass murder?


That homosexuality is a choice…this is the assumption that has nothing to support it.




So why are you defying God and attacking people who are different form you?



Nowhere does God actually do that.


Neither does it claim that it is.

Sure.

No, I don't approve of mass murder. Are you calling God's justice system murder?

That homosexuality isn't a choice is the same assumption.

I am not defying God. You are, and so is anyone who claims it's not a sin.

The acts are wrong, therefore the relationships/feelings are wrong.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

I am not better than a homosexual, the same way I am not better than a liar or a murderer or a thief.

I am going to assume you meant well by this statement, but it still gripes me that we are compared to murderers and thieves.

"I am not better than a biblical literalist, the same way I am not better than a murderer or a thief."

OK - I feel better now.

 

[WashedBytheSon]

And Lot…the only moral man in Sodom remember responds by offering up his children to be raped by every man (all of which were supposedly homosexual) in the city. If you want to use the myth of Sodom to condemn for homosexuals, you must realize that at the same time you are justifying child sexual abuse as a moral practice

Who said that Lot offering his daughters was morally right? He was a moral man, more moral than his neighbors, but that doesn't mean where he lived didn't affect him at all. All of his neighbors were wicked people, they would have rubbed off on him some way. We see this throughout the bible. When the Israelites didn't kill everyone in Caanan they ended up adopting their sinful ways. Lot thought it would be 'less wicked' if it was with his daughters instead of the guests. That doesn't mean that it was less wicked. It also contradicted his first plea to 'not act so wicked' which showed the indignity of spirit, which he lived under in Sodom.

 

[WashedBytheSon]

I am going to assume you meant well by this statement, but it still gripes me that we are compared to murderers and thieves.

"I am not better than a biblical literalist, the same way I am not better than a murderer or a thief."

OK - I feel better now.

I only compared homosexuals that way in the sense that no sin is worse than another.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

Well, the 'He created me gay' statement is something to lie about, since the bible condemns homosexuality and that fact alone makes it clear that God didn't create you gay.

I was calling you a liar. I believe God's word over you.

Well you have believed your own lie, then.
Your refusal to let God be God has caused you to make one of us a liar.
The fact that I am gay and created by God is evidence on my side.

Your choice, of course, to call God a liar.

 

[GwynApNudd]

Well, the 'He created me gay' statement is something to lie about, since the bible condemns homosexuality and that fact alone makes it clear that God didn't create you gay.

I was calling you a liar. I believe God's word over you.

If your criteria is that someone who disagrees with God's Word is a liar, then by your own mouth you stand condemned.

Or do you deny Jesus' own words in Matthew 19:12 that "For there are some eunuchs*, which were so born from [their] mother's womb."

*The cultures of the Ancient Middle East used the same word (saris) to describe two different types of men, both those that Greeks called eunuchs, and those that the Greeks called "the third sex." In Matthew 19:12, Jesus is teaching a new order of saris, holy celibates, and He mentions the pre-existing two in order that there be no confusion between the celibates and the "third sex." About the "third sex," He says that were born saris "from their mother's womb."

CT is in accord with the Word of God.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

I only compared homosexuals that way in the sense that no sin is worse than another.

Yes.
Which is why I wanted to point out the sin of biblical literalists, which is no worse than murder.

 

[WashedBytheSon]

Well you have believed your own lie, then.
Your refusal to let God be God has caused you to make one of us a liar.
The fact that I am gay and created by God is evidence on my side.

Your choice, of course, to call God a liar.

Of course you are gay, but whether or not you were created that way is the issue at hand. The stance is that you were created, but became gay.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

Of course you are gay, but whether or not you were created that way is the issue at hand. The stance is that you were created, but became gay.

Now why would I BECOME gay?

Why would any one of us CHOOSE to suffer the crap we get from "Christians?"

No - I was created gay. Fact.

God is using gay people (and other marginalized people) to promote the Gospel. I praise and thank him for the humble honor.

 

[WashedBytheSon]

If your criteria is that someone who disagrees with God's Word is a liar, then by your own mouth you stand condemned.

Or do you deny Jesus' own words in Matthew 19:12 that "For there are some eunuchs*, which were so born from [their] mother's womb."

*The cultures of the Ancient Middle East used the same word (saris) to describe two different types of men, both those that Greeks called eunuchs, and those that the Greeks called "the third sex." In Matthew 19:12, Jesus is teaching a new order of saris, holy celibates, and He mentions the pre-existing two in order that there be no confusion between the celibates and the "third sex." About the "third sex," He says that were born saris "from their mother's womb."

CT is in accord with the Word of God.

Jesus is talking about divorce and celibacy in those verses. 'Born that way from their mothers womb' implies that they are physically incapable of marrying through natural causes., Which could also identify as 'third sex' since it would technically mean 'asexual.'
If those verses were talking about homosexuality, Jesus is saying they are to be celibate.

 

[WashedBytheSon]

If homosexuality is ok, why doesn't God clarify it? Why isn't it stated plainly that homosexuality isn't wrong? God is clear about everything else.
​

 

[WashedBytheSon]

Now why would I BECOME gay?

Why would any one of us CHOOSE to suffer the crap we get from "Christians?"

No - I was created gay. Fact.

God is using gay people (and other marginalized people) to promote the Gospel. I praise and thank him for the humble honor.

Why does anyone choose to do anything that gets them ostracized? I have your opinion that you were born gay, that doesn't equal fact.

 

[david_x]

Whether or not it is genetic or choice is relevant.

Because God wouldn't make you some way and then call it a sin because then, hypothetically, God would be CREATING sin. Sex is biologically a very human thing. Very few can go through life without fulfilling it which is why sex isn't sin (abusing it is, but within a single, mutual relationship it's a symbol and a fulfillment). So for God to give a certain sexual desire to a person then tell them NOT to fulfill it, doesn't exactly shine well on God.

Everything you are born with God gives you. God doesn't tempt you and won't give you any sort of gene that WOULD tempt you.

God put temptation in us because temptation is not bad, it is in fact good. It is the fire by witch we are wraught.

1 Corinthians 10:13 (New International Version)

13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

 

[david_x]

If homosexuality is ok, why doesn't God clarify it? Why isn't it stated plainly that homosexuality isn't wrong? God is clear about everything else.

He is very clear,

Romans 1:27 (New International Version)

27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

(for some reason this is often overlooked)

 

[ChaliceThunder]

If homosexuality is ok, why doesn't God clarify it? Why isn't it stated plainly that homosexuality isn't wrong? God is clear about everything else.
​

God IS clarifying it through the faithful witness of millions of gay Christians.

However, as was true with the Israelites, and the Pharisees, God's word fell on deaf ears.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

Why does anyone choose to do anything that gets them ostracized? I have your opinion that you were born gay, that doesn't equal fact.

Not an opinion, dear.

I know who I am.

The opinion is YOURS.

 

[david_x]

Not an opinion, dear.

I know who I am.

The opinion is YOURS.

Oh but you could make a choice not to be. (granted you will have to do it over and over again)

 

[ChaliceThunder]

He is very clear,

Romans 1:27 (New International Version)

27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

(for some reason this is often overlooked)

Correction:

In this way HETEROSEXUAL (the assumption at the time for all men) men abandoned natural relations with women.

When you read it properly, it works!

 

[ChaliceThunder]

Oh but you could make a choice not to be. (granted you will have to do it over and over again)

But to choose to not be myself would then cease giving glory to God...and I refuse to cease giving glory to God!

 

[ChaliceThunder]

If homosexuality is ok, why doesn't God clarify it? Why isn't it stated plainly that homosexuality isn't wrong? God is clear about everything else.
​

I must revisit this post, because I forgot to address the last sentence.

In what sense is God at all clear about "everything else?"

Why, then, do we have theologians? Why do we constantly have to wrangle over "the problem of evil?" Why do babies die? Why x, y, z?

God leaves a way open so that we may enter into intimate relationship with him. If there were no questions, we would not need answers, and would feel self-sufficient.