But it was not a Choice...

[MercyBurst]

Has anyone in support of the committing of homosexual acts yet to produce any uniform agreement of Scripture about God affirming the committing of homosexual acts?

No, they don't care about sin period, except when it is done against them.

 

[Zaac]

I hope you are equally as loud and fervent in saying that people who divorce and remarry are also living in sin. After all, fair's fair.

Yep. I sure am. If they are divorced for any reason other than the one God allows, Yep.I have no qualms with righteously judging and pointing out sin as sin to the evildoer. Ezekiel 3:18

Just call me an equa,l opportunity sin pointer-outer.

Divorcees don't get a pass just because they remarry. It has to be done in God's Order just as everything else has to be.

 

[GwynApNudd]

There's also the possibility that they could have been leather daddies with a penchant for drinking the urine of sheep. Now I say that to make the point that you should let God's Word speak for itself. Deal with what the text says, and not what we assume to possibly be able to read into it.

[BIBLE]1 Samuel 18:1-5[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]1 Samuel 20:1-42[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]1 samuel 23:16-18[/BIBLE]

There is more evidence of a close relationship between David and Jonathan in these passages than there is of a close relationship between ChaliceThunder and his partner in all of his posts here. You claim that that is enough for you to be sure that CT and his partner must be "committing" sinful acts.

And you use this knowledge to become rude beyond all civilized bounds in your posts to him, just because he wants to keep his private life private.

I don't have enough information (nor do I need it, since it is none of my business) to make a judgement about either pair. It is their private life.

BTW, earlier in the week, you said that there is no evidence in the Bible that God condones a covenant between a man and a man. I suggest that you re-read the last of the verses referenced above.

Unless such a physical love is exampled elsewhere, why open the door for confusion?

So you are rejecting the possibility that this is an example of same-sex love because it is the "only" one to be presented to you? And when someone offers a second (like Ruth and Naomi) will you reject it again because that one is the "only" one -- after all, you already "proved" J&D weren't a couple? And when Jehu and Jehonadab are offered they will they still be the "only" example and be rejected because of that?

By that logic I could claim that God does not bless heterosexual marriage, either. After all, in Genesis 2, Adam and Eve are the "only" example. And if we reject Adam and Eve, then Seth and his wife become the "only" example, and so on ad infinitum.

How many times does God show that His desired way is the union of man and wife?

No one that I know of has ever disputed this. Not even Paul who said that if you have the gift that was given him, it would be better not to be married.

How many times does He have to show that fornication is sinful?

Again no one disputes this.

How many times does He have to show that marriage is a covenant between Him a husband and a wife?

Or this.

If you're going to read any such assumption into the story of David and Jonathon, you have to ignore what He says about the aforementioned.

I haven't read anything into the story of J&D. I mentioned what others have seen there and that there is some evidence that supports them, but I don't know how deep the relationship was. I don't know how physical the relationship was. And that's all right. If it were any of my business, there would be more details given. God knows what is sufficient.

See now you're just acting silly. If it is an ACT, why would I say anything other than committing? If it's an act, it's being committed. If you're not committing sexual acts with the same sex, then there is no act to call sinful. But once you commit the act...It's not rocket science.

Yes or no. Have you stopped beating your wife?

Again, you're continuing with this silliness and have become fixated on the word committing. What do you want me to say? Doing homosexual acts?

How about minding your own business?

I'm not defending me, and that's where you as a Christian keep getting confused.

No confusion. I know that you are not defending yourself, because there is no defense for your uncivilized rudeness. You'd rather attack the gays and pry into CT's personal life.

You seem to think this is a tete-a-tete prove my point before you can prove yours discussion.

No, I simply decided to stop trying to explain the truth as long as you are focused on framing the question in such a way as to allow you to ignore the explanation and twist the truth.

<<But the question was "Have you stopped beating your wife?" It's a simple question. It just needs a yes or no answer.>>

And that's what you continue to do. That's what you have done in the number of threads where you've attempted to prove this LIE. Yes I said LIE because that's exactly what it is.

<<I'll take that as a no. Your poor wife.>>

Yeah you're confused. And God will hold you responsible for trying to pull others into your confusion.

You are more dangerous than all the nonbelievers combined.

And you can't answer the argument so you can only attack the arguer.

And now you're just speaking with the devil's tongue because you want to be right. You know very well what ACTS are being referred to so you can stop with the childish word play.

Is there anything in that statement that was false? I assume that if there were you would point it out to correct me, rather than calling me a devil. (Which only goes to prove that your earlier statement that you never curse, and that you weren't thinking ugly thoughts about me is hogwash.)

 

[GwynApNudd]

.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

I don't have any issues on homosexuality. I'm in agreement with God's Word on the committing of sexual acts with smeone of the same sex being sinful.



I don't need to know. But if you are having sex with your partner of 23 years, it's just as sinful as the teenage boy who has sex with his girlfriend.



God's Word again disagrees with ya.

But WHY the hang up about sex acts? You talk about them all day long on this board. Hundreds of posts about gay sex acts. Please do not claim you don't have an issue...you do.

Why don't you mind your own acts, and spread the gospel?

God's word does not disagree with me.
You can judge when you have the mote outta yer own eye...and that ain't happened yet.

You can cast the first stone when you are without sin...and that will never happen.

 

[MrPirate]

There you go again with that red herring. Who said anything about the Bible supporting prejudice, hate, and discrimination?

Your posts make that abundantly clear

Gwyn's issue ain't the rejection of prejudice. It's the rejection of God's Word. She is a false teacher and needs to be recognized as such.

So the answer is no you have no reason for saying this other than the rejection of prejudice by Gwyn

 

[ChaliceThunder]

No - Gwyn is teaching with authority and compassion.

Something badly needed around here!

 

[WashedBytheSon]

What I mean is that nowhere in the Bible does it say that people who were born homosexual are an abomination and they should be killed. What Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13 say is that the specific act of "man-lying" is toevah.

It is unclear, from those verses alone, whether it is toevah because the act referred to is associated with idolatry (that is, it is condemning a specific pagan practice) or if it is toevah because the participants are ritually defiled. As we continue reading Leviticus 20, however, we see that the laws in that chapter are written to warn the children of Israel to separate themselves from the idolatrous practices of the Canaanites.
[bible]Leviticus 20:22-23[/bible]

This suggests that "man-lying" was forbidden because that act was tainted by idolatry.

But it also continues with a reminder of the dietary laws, separating the clean animals from the unclean animals, which suggests that the acts forbidden in Leviticus 20 are likewise part of the holiness code.
[bible]Leviticus 20:24-26[/bible]

There is no genetic proof that anyone is born homosexual. And if people are born homosexual today people would have been born homosexual back then, and if they were open about it they probably would have been killed. You are operating on an assumption that there is no proof for. God would not create someone homosexual and then call homosexuality wrong. God does call homosexuality wrong. It never says "in the instance that you are born this way, it's ok." There isn't anything in the bible that says same-sex isn't sinful. It doesn't matter if they are in a monogamous relationship or not.

 

[MrPirate]

I did not argue that God did not create CT a homosexual.

God may have his reasons for wanting CT genes out of the gene pool.

You were the one objecting to the very idea that God made CT the way he is and accepts him juts fine the way he is.
Now can you prove that God did not create CT and every other homosexual on the planet to be exactly the way they are?

All you do is call everyone prejudice and racists. That is boring. Everytime you generically use another's line of argument in falls through. Get educated. Try to come up withsomething more than three sentances long that is original.

I would be unable to do so if people did not use arguments also used by racists. I would be unable to do so if prejudice presented was not indistinguishable from racism.
If you re upset by the truth you may leave or you might consider looking at what you are posting and using something more original than the tactics long employed by racists in their arguments

Your buddy, BAFRIEND aka LANTERN.

So why all the sock puppets?
too many warnings?

 

[MrPirate]

I don't have any issues on homosexuality. I'm in agreement with God's Word on the committing of sexual acts with smeone of the same sex being sinful.

Sadly God’s word doesn’t say anything of the sort.

 

[WashedBytheSon]

You did not read my post. You simply skimmed for buzzwords. Otherwise you would not claim that I was proposing the angel-lust theory.

I specifically stated that because that was the usual "debunking" of Jude, I had trouble accepting the position that God was leading me toward. In order to believe that explanation you have to deny that the Scriptures were devinely inspired.



Genesis 19, like Judges 19, 2 Samuel 10, and 1 Chronicles 19 speaks to a political act of terrorism and intimidation. Yes, there is a sexual aspect to gang-rape, but it is not driven by lust, but by other base insticts. How can you not know the difference between sex and rape?

And, as I explained, Jude does not say that the Sodomites "lusted after strange flesh," but rather that they followed after another, fleshly, religion. Earlier in the verse, he does mention their giving themselves over into fornication, but he does not indicate that that fornication was different in any way from other fornication. In particular, he does not mention same-sex fornication.

In order to believe your explanation you have to deny that scriptures were divinely inspired? How do you get, from Jude 7, that it's talking about following a fleshly religion? I know you already explained it, but it doesn't make any sense. The men of the city wanted to have homosexual sex with Lot's guests. Explain to me also, how you came to the conclusion that it was a 'political act of terrorism.' I know the difference between sex and rape, but what Sodom and Gomorrah did was clearly because they were wicked, not because it made them feel in control or powerful. Their lust is included in what is wicked, by the way. Sexual immorality can include same-sex sex and heterosexual sexual immorality.

 

[WashedBytheSon]

I think of late at least I finally get why some anti-gay people feel the way you do here. I can actually appreciate that according to your interrpretation of the Bible it is us pro-gay people that are twisting the word of God.

I'm not going to debate this point with you as I'm sure it would be fairly pointless, but in all seriousness Im curious as to if you can at least see the other sides perspective. In the Bible I never see Jesus grabbing gay people by the collar screaming "ITS A SIN" at them repeatedly, in fact I don't believe he even meets a gay person in scripture. Jesus dosen't do this, so why do so many fundamentalist Christians who claim to be following his word?

Can you at least see the suffering lots of people who are gay go through because of viewpoints similar to yours. I mean low self-esteem, self-harm, suicide etc.. that does occour in young gay people is often caused by the very fact so many people (at least over in the US, I rarely hear anything over in the UK now) campaign against them? Or is the fact you believe your saving souls cancel out all the suffering of others?

Im not trying to bait here, I genuinally would like to have some answers to these questions.

In scriptures, we don't see Jesus grabbing anyone by the collar and telling them 'it's a sin!"but we also don't see anyone denying what is a sin. It's not about telling gay people what they are doing is sin, because they already understand this viewpoint (or have at least heard it). This is about Christians denying it's a sin because they don't want to change their lifestyles. If homosexuality wasn't called a sin then I wouldn't have a problem with it. But in case you are wondering, I do not go up to gay people and freak out on them, or campaign in the streets against them, or anything like that. I am not better than a homosexual, the same way I am not better than a liar or a murderer or a thief. I also sin. The problem is denying whether or not something is a sin. I would not tell a person in my family, if they came out and said they were gay, that I hated them or that they were sick. I would not lie and tell them I agree with their lifestyle, but I would love them anyway. I understand that many people have a hard time with being homosexual, but that does not convince me that it's not a choice and I'm not going to lie about what I believe. That also doesn't mean I wouldn't continually tell them that God loves them, either.

 

[GwynApNudd]

Gwyn's issue ain't the rejection of prejudice. It's the rejection of God's Word. She is a false teacher and needs to be recognized as such.

You are right that Gwyn's "issue" is not the rejection of prejudice. (Although Gwyn does try to counter prejudice with truth and compassion whenever Gwyn is confronted with it.

And you are right that Gwyn's issue is the rejection of God's Word. It saddens Gwyn to see so many posters here who reject God' word. Gwyn's mission is an attempt to reach those like you who reject the Holy Spirit and refuse to let Him show them the truth contained in the Word of God.

[bible]Matthew 23:23-33[/bible]

 

[MrPirate]

There is no genetic proof that anyone is born homosexual.

Yet there is significant evidence that sexual oriention is an inborn trait.

What does not exist is any evidence that sexual oriention is a choice.

And if people are born homosexual today people would have been born homosexual back then, and if they were open about it they probably would have been killed.

Are you approving of the idea of mass murder?

You are operating on an assumption that there is no proof for.

That homosexuality is a choice&#8230;this is the assumption that has nothing to support it.

God would not create someone homosexual and then call homosexuality wrong.

So why are you defying God and attacking people who are different form you?

God does call homosexuality wrong.

Nowhere does God actually do that.

It never says "in the instance that you are born this way, it's ok." There isn't anything in the bible that says same-sex anything isn't sinful.

Neither does it claim that it is.

 

[WashedBytheSon]

No, I believe you were actually attempting to call God a liar. Please refer to your earlier post for evidence.

I am not a liar, and neither is God. He created me gay, and blessed me with a wonderful partner.

What is there to lie about?

Well, the 'He created me gay' statement is something to lie about, since the bible condemns homosexuality and that fact alone makes it clear that God didn't create you gay.

I was calling you a liar. I believe God's word over you.

 

[WashedBytheSon]

No it says male on male rape is morally wrong, not homosexuality.

It is interesting to note however that the bible very few problems with women being raped…But that is a different topic.


Actually a great deal of evidence showing sexual oriention is inborn does exist and such evidence is easy to find so long as one is willing to honestly look

What does not exist is evidence that homosexuality is a choice.

What do you mean, the bible has very few problems with women being raped ? I hold to my previous position, despite your explanation of Leviticus, because the scriptural evidence against homosexuality is there. It is not proven (genetically) that homosexuality is inborn, if it was there would be no debate about it.

I finally understand now that you and many other people advocating for homosexuality believe that it's not the same as today as it was back then.

 

[MrPirate]

In order to believe your explanation you have to deny that scriptures were divinely inspired? How do you get, from Jude 7, that it's talking about following a fleshly religion? I know you already explained it, but it doesn't make any sense. The men of the city wanted to have homosexual sex with Lot's guests. Explain to me also, how you came to the conclusion that it was a 'political act of terrorism.' I know the difference between sex and rape, but what Sodom and Gomorrah did was clearly because they were wicked, not because it made them feel in control or powerful. Their lust is included in what is wicked, by the way. Sexual immorality can include same-sex sex and heterosexual sexual immorality.

And Lot…the only moral man in Sodom remember responds by offering up his children to be raped by every man (all of which were supposedly homosexual) in the city. If you want to use the myth of Sodom to condemn for homosexuals, you must realize that at the same time you are justifying child sexual abuse as a moral practice

 

[WashedBytheSon]

Prove God didn’t create CT homosexual


Like the desire to justify personal prejudice?

Prove that He did. It's not about personal prejudice, it's about truth.

 

[GwynApNudd]

I'm reminded (as I often am of a quote) it's a little long:

Originally Posted by By Gordon Atkinson
A man once told me that he believes every word in the Bible. I was struck dumb with amazement.
He
Believes
Every word in the Bible
There is no part of that statement that makes sense to me. He might as well have described the secret contents of every woman's heart or the sharp edge of every child's pain. He could have been explaining a unified theory of everything or summarizing the federal budget on his thumbnail for all I knew.
He? Him? One person? One man makes this claim? One man has seen these words, felt them, breathed them, fought with them, cried over them, been broken by them? One man knows their story and can piece together their ancient context? One man understands the grace behind the surprising progression of these words across the Testaments?
Believes? Who can understand the meaning behind that word? Is there a vocabulary that can communicate the soul-jarring collision that occurs when emotion meets intellect and intuition struggles against wisdom? Is there a language that can describe this leap of faith, this heroic standing in the gap, this tragic and joyful commitment of belief that is, in the end, the only thing we have to offer the Creator?
Every word in the Bible? Every word in each of these 66 books? I'm rightly impressed when I hear that someone has read the Bible, much less claimed to know it and believe it.
How does he hold all of that information in his mind at any given moment? Did his attention never waver, not even when he read the genealogies? Did his eyes not grow heavy when Job and his accusing friends droned on and on? Is he a man, or some sort of reading, knowing, and believing machine?
He believes every word in the Bible. Surely this is some sort of marketing slogan meant only to advertise his self-image and his perceived place in the world.
"Stand aside, for I am a man who believes every word in the Bible!"
Once I too dreamed that I might know every word of the Bible. I hoped to pilot my ship across the surface of its troubled waters and know every bend and horseshoe bay. I wanted to drop a sounding line and call out its depth to my friends.
"Mark one!"
"Quarter one!"
"Half one!"
"Mark twain!"
But the sounding cry came from the heavens, and it was my own life that was measured and my own life that was known. And each time I am measured, I become a little smaller and a little less sure of myself.
I am now convinced that there is no end to these twisting waters. I will not master this river, neither its depths nor its ways. And now that I have as many years behind me as ahead of me, I have taken my pipe and seated myself by the captain's stove to have a smoke and consider these things.
I have had to make some adjustments to my expectations.
So if not the whole Bible, perhaps I could know the New Testament and come to understand the foundations of the Christian faith. And if the New Testament is too much to fathom, then maybe I could know the gospel stories of Jesus. And if not the gospels, then how about Matthew? And if not Matthew, then surely the Sermon on the Mount could be known. And if not the Sermon, then at least the Beatitudes. And if not the Beatitudes, then I would like to know the first Beatitude.
I would like to know what Jesus meant when He said, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven."
I would like to know poverty of Spirit, for poverty is all I am left with. I would like the courage to be made poor before the shattering depth of the Creator and alongside the unthinkable breadth of humanity. Spiritual poverty is all I ask for now, and it is more than I can handle.
My God, Thou hast given me only one lifetime and half of it is already gone.
Mark twain. I am hoping for safe passage.

that's from the real live preacher, and if you want to be really blessed check out the rest of his articles here: http://www.reallivepreacher.com/
tulc(that guy is a good brother)

This seems like an appropriate place to repeat tulc's post.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

There is no genetic proof that anyone is born homosexual.
[\quote]

Science is not finished with this topic yet. It remains to be seen if there is genetic evidence.

However, there is plenty of evidence that people are created gay.

I am one of them! And I bless God for the gift.

And if people are born homosexual today people would have been born homosexual back then, and if they were open about it they probably would have been killed.

And yet you wonder why gay people have hidden for centuries!

God would not create someone homosexual and then call homosexuality wrong.

Correct - which is why God does NOT call homosexuality wrong.