But it was not a Choice...

[david_x]

Correction:

In this way HETEROSEXUAL (the assumption at the time for all men) men abandoned natural relations with women.

When you read it properly, it works!

Men did what is impure, does it say anyone can do it and not be sinful? No. You are misrepresenting scrtipture, that is a far graver sin. After you believe you own lie you are truly lost.

But to choose to not be myself would then cease giving glory to God...and I refuse to cease giving glory to God!

If you wish to bring glory to God you would deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow him.

Who you are is sinnful, God does not want that.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

Men did what is impure, does it say anyone can do it and not be sinful? No. You are misrepresenting scrtipture, that is a far graver sin. After you believe you own lie you are truly lost.



If you wish to bring glory to God you would deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow him.

Who you are is sinnful, God does not want that.

I have denied plenty.

But I will not deny that which God has blessed.

He has not called me out of relationship, but INTO relationship that gives witness to God's love in the world.

Who ALL OF US ARE is sinful. (That includes YOU, bro.) But thanks be to God who gives us the victory - we are made worthy by Christ to stand before him.

 

[david_x]

I have denied plenty.

But I will not deny that which God has blessed.

He has not called me out of relationship, but INTO relationship that gives witness to God's love in the world.

Who ALL OF US ARE is sinful. (That includes YOU, bro.) But thanks be to God who gives us the victory - we are made worthy by Christ to stand before him.

And what has God blessed? Peace, patience, kindness, self-control, and which one were you refering to?

I have been forgiven as well, but homosexuality is on that list too.

 

[GwynApNudd]

In order to believe your explanation you have to deny that scriptures were divinely inspired?

Do you have dyslexia? Twice now you are claiming that I favor the angel-rape theory when I said exactly the opposite!

It is not my explanation. It is an explanation that I could never accept because to acceptit is to deny that Scriptures were divinely inspired. I only mentioned it because the original post was in response to a question of yours about how I reconcile the Scriptures.

Because I could not accept the angel-rape theory, I was having trouble reconciling what God was teaching me with Jude 1:7. It was real stumbling block.

Until I looked at Jude in the original Greek and saw that the Sodomites were not "lusting after strange flesh" but "following after a different carnal teaching."

ως σοδομα και γομορρα και αι περι αυτας πολεις τον ομοιον τουτοις τροπον εκπορνευσασαι και απελθουσαι οπισω σαρκος ετερας προκεινται δειγμα πυρος αιωνιου δικην υπεχουσαι
Jude 1:7 [Textus Receptus]

How do you get, from Jude 7, that it's talking about following a fleshly religion? I know you already explained it, but it doesn't make any sense.

The Greek word απελθουσαι does not, can not mean "lusting." Normally it simply means "going" as in "going away from here" or "going to the city." It can also mean "following in the sense of following a teacher or a philosophy.

It is used that way in Luke 17:23 and John 6:68.
[bible]Luke 17:23[/bible]
[bible]John 6:68[/bible]

The men of the city wanted to have homosexual sex with Lot's guests. Explain to me also, how you came to the conclusion that it was a 'political act of terrorism.' I know the difference between sex and rape, but what Sodom and Gomorrah did was clearly because they were wicked, not because it made them feel in control or powerful.

And Hanun and his men did what they did to David's ambassadors because they were suddenly overcome by lust? Re-read the accounts. All four. It is political terrorism. Rape is never an issue of lust. And this was rape.

Their lust is included in what is wicked, by the way. Sexual immorality can include same-sex sex and heterosexual sexual immorality

I don't deny that. But nowhere in the Bible is same-sex immorality singled out as a specific (or a particularly evil) reason for the condemnation of Sodom. That was a later addition to the tradition of the Church. And when Church tradition disagrees with the Word of God, I would rather follow the Word of God.

Sodom simply is not any more associated with same-sex immorality than it is with cross-sex immorality. The sins that Sodom is singled out for are: Forsaking the Lord; Revolution; Injustice; Uncharitableness;murder;Rewarding evil;Adultery; Swearing; Idolatry; Lying; Pride; Gluttony; Sloth; a High-handed attitude (they were "haughty")

 

[GwynApNudd]

WashedBytheSon and zaac --

You have both harped on the importance of the FULL COUNSEL of God's Word several times this week. You explained that it means that one has to examine all of the Scriptures to make sure that one's understanding is in accord with God's plan, comparing scripture to scripture.

Look over the posts for this last week and tell me who has done this, you or me.

Have you gone back to the Greek and Hebrew to be sure you understood a word or a phrase?

Have you cross-referenced your claims with other verses on the same topic? Or other verses which employ the same turn of phrase to make sure that you understood the idiom involved?

Have you looked at the culture of ancient Israel and the surrounding nations to try to see how the original readers would understand the words?

Other than the traditional few verses (Leviticus, Romans, 1 Corinthians, 1 Timothy and Jude) I do not recall you referencing (as opposed to referring to) God's Word all week.

I admit I could be wrong about this, and if you can show me a post where you did any of the above, I will apologize.

Edited to add:

I had forgotten about the verses that Zaac has looked up and posted on false teachers. I forgot them because they were irrelevant to the particular arguments in those discussions the way he posted them. He did not connect them to the topics being discussed, and since he did not show my teachings to be false, they did not connect with me.

However, I am a person of my word. I was wrong, Zaac did reference passages other than the few I mentioned. I apologize.

 

[HaloHope]

In scriptures, we don't see Jesus grabbing anyone by the collar and telling them 'it's a sin!"but we also don't see anyone denying what is a sin. It's not about telling gay people what they are doing is sin, because they already understand this viewpoint (or have at least heard it). This is about Christians denying it's a sin because they don't want to change their lifestyles. If homosexuality wasn't called a sin then I wouldn't have a problem with it. But in case you are wondering, I do not go up to gay people and freak out on them, or campaign in the streets against them, or anything like that. I am not better than a homosexual, the same way I am not better than a liar or a murderer or a thief. I also sin. The problem is denying whether or not something is a sin. I would not tell a person in my family, if they came out and said they were gay, that I hated them or that they were sick. I would not lie and tell them I agree with their lifestyle, but I would love them anyway. I understand that many people have a hard time with being homosexual, but that does not convince me that it's not a choice and I'm not going to lie about what I believe. That also doesn't mean I wouldn't continually tell them that God loves them, either.

Thank you for your response

I think while I disagree with your opinion that you have quite a reasonable way of putting your beliefs across in real life if this is the way you do conduct yourself in regards to homosexuality.

What would you say about those Christians who do protest homosexuality, campaign against them, freak out if they meet a gay person etc.. ?

 

[MrPirate]

What do you mean, the bible has very few problems with women being raped ?

Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Deuteronomy 21:10-14
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Exodus 21:7-11
Judges 5:30
Judges 21:10-24
Numbers 31:7-18

I hold to my previous position, despite your explanation of Leviticus, because the scriptural evidence against homosexuality is there.

In other words you reject the truth because it conflicts with your personal prejudice.

It is not proven (genetically) that homosexuality is inborn, if it was there would be no debate about it.

Yet there is significant evidence that sexual oriention is an inborn trait.

What does not exist is any evidence that sexual oriention is a choice.

I finally understand now that you and many other people advocating for homosexuality believe that it's not the same as today as it was back then.

Bigotry never really changes

 

[MrPirate]

Prove that He did.

You made the claim
“Well, the 'He created me gay' statement is something to lie about, since the bible condemns homosexuality and that fact alone makes it clear that God didn't create you gay.”
So put your money where your mouth is and prove it

It's not about personal prejudice,

Yeah…it is

it's about truth.

Which you have chosen to ignore “I hold to my previous position, despite your explanation of Leviticus, because the scriptural evidence against homosexuality is there.”

 

[MrPirate]

Sure.

No, I don't approve of mass murder. Are you calling God's justice system murder?

Call it planting tulips…but people still end up being dead. And you seem to really enjoy that notion

That homosexuality isn't a choice is the same assumption.

There exists no evidence that sexual oriention is a choice.

I am not defying God. You are, and so is anyone who claims it's not a sin.

"You can safely conclude you have created God in your own image when it turns out that He hates all the same people you do" - Anne Lamott

The acts are wrong, therefore the relationships/feelings are wrong.

if you are talking about your personal prejudice…then yes you are correct it is wrong to be prejudice and it is wrong to try to use the bible to justify ones hatred

 

[MrPirate]

I am going to assume you meant well by this statement, but it still gripes me that we are compared to murderers and thieves.

"I am not better than a biblical literalist, the same way I am not better than a murderer or a thief."

OK - I feel better now.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ChaliceThunder again.

 

[BAFRIEND]

So why all the sock puppets?
too many warnings?

I have never had an infraction, the fact is that I retired BAFRIEND because that ID is a site supporter and I do not support the new structure of CF. I wanted to make it clear that CF, under the new policies would never see my money again. No intention to hide my identity either as I publically posted the ID change in OBOB when I did it.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

I sense no malice in their words, they are just informing you of your sin using scripture, and what I read from this thread most of you are using it to justify your position when you really don't even beleive it to be the Word of God. If homosexuality is inborn and cannot be avoided, can the same be said of pedophilia?(sp?) I'm sorta confused on this whole issue.. since marriage contains the roles of the husband and wife, two becoming one..can a same-sex marriage fit into this?

 

[RMDY]

I was born this way.

We are all born into sin.
I was born to be promiscous, lust, and wanting to pursue my passions and desires...
yes...I could say I was born this way too...

...I was born as a sinner, separated from God because of Adam.

But Christ redeems you, my friend! =)
He crucified our passions and desires on a tree and died in your place! How great is He who laid down his life for us so that we can be forgiven and boldy come to God, not having him keep record of our sins if we confess and repent.

I'm struggling with lust and masterbating right now. It's not easy! It isn't. Only recently did I stop having pre-marital sex. Yes, I confess it. I have struggled with that too. I have abstained from pre-marital sex, and tried, but I fell into tempatation last month and did it with my gf, which I repented for and regret. God punished me for it, because he loves me. He diciplined me, by not fully answering my prayers and making me put my faith into action, not cry out like those ancient israelites that turn their backs on God and look at him with their faces.

God even spoke a message to me through his word. I can tell it to you if you want.

But the greatest struggle I have been having is touching yourself. Although I do my best to abstain from it, I can feel my bodies need to do it----even at times my mind is willing to betray my Spirit in order to satifiy my sin-nature that creeps behind me every day. Oh, how I am so divided. Whenever I do that, I can feel God's anger against my sin, but thank Him for the blood of Jesus. Oh, thank him indeed! I am so glad God doesn't condemn me for my sins because of Jesus! Psalm 51 is something that I honestly feel in my heart in how I want to cry out to God.
Even a little thought about women gives my heart a chance to betray my Spirit and satify my sin-nature. How deceitful our hearts are!
I can feel my bodies "needs" every time I do not give in to my sin-nature and my sex-drive! But God has punished me for this before, yes he has! He has indeed! I fear the Lord! Read Hebrews 12! Oh my soul cries out to God every time I give in to the sin-nature.

I would expect homosexuals to be just as discouraged as I would be if they struggle with their new creation in Christ by having to keep their passions and desires behind them. Some people can fully change the way they were before, and some....it is too hard! I fully understand this! But we must give up our old nature and be reborn as new creations in Christ! For the glory of God, we must do this! We must live in step with the Spirit, walking with the Spirit! The same spirit that gives us life, the raised Jesus from the death, that breathed itself into the Scriptures, we must do our best to make peace with God and to walk according to the Spirit, and not our bodies and our old sin-nature.

God's strength is made perfect in our weakeness. When you are weak, he is strong.
Although It has not been long since I have ceased masterbating, which is difficult to abstain from as a guy, I pray and hope that I will be able to stay purified from such a thing and from the other sin-natures God has punished me for out of love as a son.

God loves you.
God bless,

Rob

 

[BAFRIEND]

I sense no malice in their words, they are just informing you of your sin using scripture, and what I read from this thread most of you are using it to justify your position when you really don't even beleive it to be the Word of God. If homosexuality is inborn and cannot be avoided, can the same be said of pedophilia?(sp?) I'm sorta confused on this whole issue.. since marriage contains the roles of the husband and wife, two becoming one..can a same-sex marriage fit into this?

Be careful, they get most offended when asked to extend their arguments to rapists and pedophiles.

Instead of giving good defense to their lifestyles, they give themselves blisters hitting the report button and your post ends up disappearing.... hahahaha !

 

[D.W.Washburn]

Be careful, they get most offended when asked to extend their arguments to rapists and pedophiles.

Surely you recognize the difference between rape and pedophilia which are abusive, exploitive acts and a consensual homoerotic act.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

And what has God blessed? Peace, patience, kindness, self-control, and which one were you refering to?

I have been forgiven as well, but homosexuality is on that list too.

God has blessed my relationship, which shows many of the fruits of the Spirit. And I am thankful for every one of them.

 

[HaloHope]

God has blessed my relationship, which shows many of the fruits of the Spirit. And I am thankful for every one of them.

It always makes me really happy to see posts like this. Despite whatever criticism we may recieve anybody in a fulfilling same-sex relationship Christian or otherwise knows that their relationship is wonderful, good for them, healthy for them and the way things should be. In the end it dosen't matter what anyone else has to say on the subject except God, and seeing as I am consitantly feeling content and at peace in his presence with my girlfriend I know he approves.

 

[MrPirate]

I sense no malice in their words, they are just informing you of your sin using scripture,

I’m opposed to racism as well. Do you think that makes me black?

and what I read from this thread most of you are using it to justify your position when you really don't even beleive it to be the Word of God.

It is interesting how you contort the literal and contextual translation of the bible as an somehow being a sign of disbelief. Can you explain why you think that?

If homosexuality is inborn and cannot be avoided, can the same be said of pedophilia?(sp?)

This same tactic has been used by racists for decades. They have falsely compared blacks to some criminal, usually sexually based criminals.
Your statement here is no different form stating that hall black men want is to rape white women.

I'm sorta confused on this whole issue.. since marriage contains the roles of the husband and wife, two becoming one..can a same-sex marriage fit into this?

Why not ask some of the tens of thousands of happily married same sex couples

 

[Apollo Celestio]

So be it. Do you ignore the roles given to us by Jesus? Or do you elect each other to certain roles? I am NOT a racist. Do not assume something like that, just because of a simple question. I'm not some hate mongering tactician trying to bring ruin upon you. I belong to God just as you do. I really hope homosexuality/pedophilia is NOT inborn, because the sickos in our world (Some who would even call themselves Christians) would someday be able to kill it before being born. ><;

 

[Zaac]

It always makes me really happy to see posts like this. Despite whatever criticism we may recieve anybody in a fulfilling same-sex relationship Christian or otherwise knows that their relationship is wonderful, good for them, healthy for them and the way things should be.

"Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done." Romans 1:28

"Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth -- men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected." 2Timothy 3:8

"They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good." Titus 1:16

In the end it dosen't matter what anyone else has to say on the subject except God, and seeing as I am consitantly feeling content and at peace in his presence with my girlfriend I know he approves.

This would almost be laughable if it were not so tragically sad. You're using your contentment as a measure of right and wrong? If you and your girlfriend are fornicating and you are feeling at peace about the fornication, you should be concerned.