But heaven isnt appealing

[bhsmte]

If I were an atheist and I could have accomplished several major perfect crimes in my life, I would have sensed a very high degree of life achievement. And I would say that I have done well in my life.

I guess this tells us something about what makes you tick.

 

[seashale76]

Disclaimer (Orthodox view insofar as I can adequately explain it. If it isn't adequately explained, the failing is mine.)

What's heaven? What's hell? Think state rather than place.

Hebrews 12:29 says that God is a consuming fire.

God is the light of heaven and the fire of hell. God doesn't change for anyone. It's how we decide to relate to Him that makes the difference. Salvation (theosis) is becoming by grace what God is by nature- not becoming God in essence but participating in His energies. Simply put, if one is participating in God's energies, that is heaven, but if one is not, then that is hell. Think of the story of the three youths in the fiery furnace- they were able to walk around in the fire without being burned, while others couldn't even get near the fire without perishing.

CF used to have a wiki type thing that no longer exists, but this was on it:

The Orthodox teaching is that Heaven and Hell are the same "place", standing in front of God. The Judgment is individual perception, determined by one's relationship to God. This perception will determine whether or not one experiences it as paradise (Heaven) or agony (Hell) eternally .

Here is a quote from an old Wikipedia article on the topic (that doesn't seem to be around anymore) that I thought explained it pretty well:

"For many ancient Christians, Hell was the same "place" as Heaven: living in the presence of God and directly experiencing God's love. Whether this was experienced as pleasure or torment depended on one's disposition towards God. St. Isaac of Syria wrote in Mystic Treatises: "... those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!" This ancient view is still the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church."

 

[masterp48hd]

If I were an atheist and I could have accomplished several major perfect crimes in my life, I would have sensed a very high degree of life achievement. And I would say that I have done well in my life.

Are you trying to say that the only thing that keeps you from going on a kill spree is your belief in god? If so i think you really need psychological help

 

[quatona]

According to those criteria, we will misidentify many many psychopaths and geniuses.

Well, the criteria for psychopathy might not allow for a 100% safe diagnosis, but they seem workable for most practical purposes.
I don´t even know why you brought up geniuses. Completely different category.

Anyway, I notice you get hung up on petty semantic details. Have at it, as long as you feel it keeps you from having to address the actual point:
Having a psychopathic/antisocial personality is a condition only very few people have. The rest of us won´t pretend we need to base our metaphysical beliefs or social theories and models on the assumption that you are the norm.
Regarding this particular case: There are very few people like you who are obsessed with comitting the perfect crime, and we´ve learned to handle guys like you without having to escape to the idea of a supernatural judge for a solution.

 

[juvenissun]

I guess this tells us something about what makes you tick.

Yes, overcome the challenge.

 

[bhsmte]

Yes, overcome the challenge.

What challenge?

 

[juvenissun]

Are you trying to say that the only thing that keeps you from going on a kill spree is your belief in god? If so i think you really need psychological help

Who said anything about killing spree? Those are stupid acts.
Of course, a perfect murder would be included.
I don't need any more help. I already have the perfect help. I am just responded to an atheist's mentality, which is: do what you want to do, and do it to your best.

 

[juvenissun]

What challenge?

Challenge to the thing I want to do.

 

[bhsmte]

Who said anything about killing spree? Those are stupid acts.
Of course, a perfect murder would be included.
I don't need any more help. I already have the perfect help. I am just responded to an atheist's mentality, which is: do what you want to do, and do it to your best.

You would need to then explain, why countries with a high % of atheists, have such low crime rates.

 

[bhsmte]

Challenge to the thing I want to do.

And what would that be?

 

[juvenissun]

Anyway, I notice you get hung up on petty semantic details. Have at it, as long as you feel it keeps you from having to address the actual point:
Having a psychopathic/antisocial personality is a condition only very few people have. The rest of us won´t pretend we need to base our metaphysical beliefs or social theories and models on the assumption that you are the norm.
Regarding this particular case: There are very few people like you who are obsessed with comitting the perfect crime, and we´ve learned to handle guys like you without having to escape to the idea of a supernatural judge for a solution.

NO. Most people have that, only to a different degree. I only use an extreme example to illustrate the mistake. But the principle is the same. "Do what I want to do and do it to my best" is the steering and the accelerator of a car. We still need a break and a good driver.

 

[juvenissun]

You would need to then explain, why countries with a high % of atheists, have such low crime rates.

Irrelevant.
Nazi Germany has almost 0% crime rate. Any tyrant can make that happen.

 

[juvenissun]

And what would that be?

For example, don't get caught.

 

[bhsmte]

Irrelevant.
Nazi Germany has almost 0% crime rate. Any tyrant can make that happen.

0%?

I can think of 6 million cases of murder, that even a tyrant couldn't hide.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Irrelevant.
Nazi Germany has almost 0% crime rate. Any tyrant can make that happen.

Violent crime is more prevalent in US states with more religious people, and less prevalent in states with fewer religious people.

So, not irrelevant at all...

 

[fat wee robin]

You would need to then explain, why countries with a high % of atheists, have such low crime rates.

Name the countries with high per cent of atheists .

 

[quatona]

NO. Most people have that, only to a different degree. I only use an extreme example to illustrate the mistake. But the principle is the same. "Do what I want to do and do it to my best" is the steering and the accelerator of a car. We still need a break and a good driver.

Most people understand that having breaks and using them are part of what they want and is best for them. They also do understand that they aren´t islands.
Some people, though, don´t, and you´ve argued from the position of someone who doesn´t.
The question left for the rest of us is indeed: What to do about those people, in order to minimize the harm they pose for everybody?
This question isn´t answered by "there is a God".

 

[quatona]

Irrelevant.
Nazi Germany has almost 0% crime rate.

Citation needed.

Any tyrant can make that happen.

Seeing how most Germans back then were Christians, you appear to be shooting your own foot here.

 

[fat wee robin]

You would need to then explain, why countries with a high % of atheists, have such low crime rates.

Albert Einstein ,"there are yes, people who say there is no God .But what really makes me angry, is that they quote me for the support of such views ."

 

[quatona]

Yes, overcome the challenge.

I´m glad you have found a way to deal with those desires of yours.