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Featured Brexit and bible prophecy

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Douggg, Mar 17, 2019.

  1. gideon123

    gideon123 Humble Servant of God

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    I just saw news about the March also.

    Actually, i was thinking the same thing. Why doesnt the UK put Brexit through a 2nd referendum? Its not a bad idea.

    But here is a question for the UK residents on this forum. I noticed that some people in the March had signs saying 'Brexit is Treason'. I thought that was astonishing. Are people saying that they honestly believe that the UK does not exist at all, and a United Europe is a real country? That seems to be what they are saying.

    From the point of view of America, we tend to see Brussels as a rather imposing bureacracy that takes over peoples' lives. It doesnt seem to be a unified govt that is really doing its best for individual EU members. Likewise, the statements by Tusk that Britain is going to Hell (if it separates) sound more like the words of a drama queen. If i was a British resident, i would ask myself .. if the UK was attacked, would these people (Brussels and the EU) really fight and die to save me? And to be honest, i am not sure they would. But apparently some Britains really do feel they belong to a larger European country.

    Any thoughts??
     
  2. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I view leave because the EU did what Hitler could not do by war. Subjugate the UK.

    The general complaint against the EU is that unelected officials are in charge and the rules and laws they come up with. Which leads me to think that the EU is going to restructure it's government.

    I don't know what is going to happen with the UK. I would not like to see a second vote. Because, especially after two years, the leave process has been sabotaged by them who did not want to leave in the first place. My personal view is leave, with no deal, and not pay the EU anything.

    Nigel Farage said PM May said a hundred times since the brexit vote that brexit would take place March 29, deal or no deal. But her actions have had the opposite effect. And the parliament collectively is just as guilty.

    There seems to be a bunch of politics involved, at the expense of the people's vote, by the two parties to get their party in as PM.

    What this whole ordeal would be somewhat comparative to, imo, is that the United States have a presidental election, and the party in power at the time - does not like the results. And after the vote, subvert the entire process and demand a second vote - or not swear in the duly elected person. Which sort of is what has been going on with the two year long Trump investigation.
     
  3. helmut

    helmut Member

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    They rather wanted to say that they were betrayed. Instead of gaining ten thousands pounds a day, the UK loses jobs and taxes because international companies want a dependency in the EU and so leaver the UK for another country.
    There is also the issue that the Brexit might provide an opportunity to hold a referendum whether Northern Ireland will leave the UK, and strengthen the will of the Scots to leave the UK (without the threat from Brussels a new Scotland would be outside of the EU, they decided to stay in the UK in order to stay in the EU). Undermining the unity of the UK may be called treason ...

    This is rather one-sided. The EU defends the civil rights of citizen. Well Washington" did so when race discrimination was declared illegal in the USA, and there were some who resented to that. This is part from the other side.

    The duty to fight for Britain is to the NATO and WEU. As to the NATO - Trump has hinted it might not do so, as to the WEU, it has no important role by now.

    There is no "larger European country" by now, this is a "vision". It has been there from the very start, even since Churchill spoke about a unified Europe with France and Germany reconciled. But the British (at least the majority) merely thought of a pure economic union, a "common market", not of a politically program.
     
  4. helmut

    helmut Member

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    Do you mean the members of the European parliament, or the representatives of the Governments? Or the "comission" elected by the parliament?

    That's not fair. The UK got a special treatment, because they didn't want to pay as the other rich countries. As long as the UK received money, this was no theme, but when the UK became economic stronger, they got nasty. "Either give us special treatment, let us pay less, or we leave". Well, now you leave, and we want our money back!
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
  5. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Hi helmut, I am going mostly by you tube videos, I watch. The impression I get is the EU government career bureaucrats. Regarding the president, there are three.

    European Parliament president - elected by members of the EU parliament.

    European Council President - appointed by member states national leaders

    European Commission President - appointed by member states national leaders, and approved by the EU parliament

    They don't have single president equivalent to the U.S. President.

    Nigel Farage has a daily talk show (the Nigel Farage Show) which is on You Tube with callers in, that they get into all those topics.

    For me, the main thing to get out of this is there are big changes coming in Europe. And to watch and observe.
     
  6. helmut

    helmut Member

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    This sounds like one-sided information. Don't you watch information channels like BBC?

    Look at the list: all three are elected. Even the commission's president is "appointed" by elected governments.

    What's the problem? In Germany, the President is rather like the Queen in the UK: somewhat influential, but powerless. And the chancellor is elected by parliament. It is another system, but it works.

    The EU system works somewhat less efficient, this has to do with the reluctance of countries to give up the power to veto (or blockade in a block) against decisions.

    This is the man who promised the thousands pounds a day for Britain, while every expert could show you the economic costs of Brexit would surpass any plus in direct cash-flow (which is also somewhat different than promised. You are listening to a you tube channel from a liar. Don't trust what he says, unless you got confirmation of a serious source. And even if the facts are correct: be careful to see what he doesn't tell you.

    It might be the end of democracy. Referenda which are manipulated by liars like Farage, or by foreign forces like Russia, more authoritarian systems like in Hungary or Poland, xenophobic hate ...

    And in general: it is good to have more than one source of information. Try a mix of Fox, CNN and al Jazeera. You will soon understand that all are one-sided in one respect or another, but when you hear information from both sides, you will better understand the pros and cons than if you hear only one side.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2019
  7. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Hi helmut, yes they are elected, but not like our president is elected by vote from the people. It is true that we have the electoral college, goes by each state casting a specific number of electoral votes, depending on the size of each state, and depending on who wins in each state.

    But that is not the same as the way those presidents in the EU are "elected".

    Which if we didn't have the electoral college system, and instead by direct popular vote, every president would be according to Los Angeles, Chicago, New York.

    I don't even have cable or satellite TV any more. I do watch a lot of You Tube. There are the mainstream news channels on You Tube. But I don't trust main stream news. You tube with alternative news is the best thing that could have happened, imo.

    helmut, yes, if you have some comments or information we should know about and can cite a You Tube video, then let us know what you think and give us some links.

    I have been watching Channel 4 news channel on You Tube today, live proceedings in the UK parliament, brexit voting. It has been a real education on how parliament works on debating issues, voting on issues etc....

    Order! order. A verbal vote is taken. If it is not a clear winner. The speak shouts out.... Division! Clear the chamber. Then they all file back in after voting by record. Lock the doors! Order! order. Everyone goes silent. And the 4 or more stewards (I don't know the actual term) come forward, stand at a podium facing the Speaker of the House, and one of them informs the Speaker of the house, the yeas, and nays. Which he repeats.

    helmut, if your position is anti-brexit, I don't have any problem at all with you being on a different side of the issue.

    I am looking at it from the standpoint of it being major news taking place resulting in change for the EU. Your comments are certainly welcomed.

    Fox, CNN, MSN are all untrustworthy. Anything coming out al Jazeera can be slanted as well, because the muslims countries themselves in the middle east don't have freedom of speech.

    If a person is on the stay side of the issue - then Nigel Farage is a nightmare. I personally think Nigel Farage is great.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2019
  8. helmut

    helmut Member

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    Don't cheat: Your President is not elected by the people, but by men elected to the electoral college, i. he is elected by elected people. And the system is such that Trump got elected while Clinton had the majority in people's vote.

    Of course not the same, but there is no principal difference. Indirect vote.

    Change President to the European offices we talk about and "Los Angeles, Chicago, New York" to "Germany and France", and the sentence would be a hyperbole with much truth in both cases.

    Especially for those liars that present their lies as alternate truth, or even demasking something. You need to be careful and not just believe everything that strengthens your bias.

    Any commentator in German TV says this chaos is not the normal custom of the British Parliament.

    Oh, you mean the actual procedure. Very British, I suppose.

    It's not good for Britain, it's not good for the EU. But the chaos (after 2 years, nobody can tell "what the parliament wants") is even worse than a hard Brexit.

    In Germany, there is scarcity of appartments in many cities. In Frankfurt (upon Main) this got worse because so many people now settle from London to Frankfurt: A lot of Jobs are now moved away from the UK, and Frankfurt is not the only continental city that gets new jobs and residents because of the Brexit.

    Al Jazeera has an English channel which is rather good journalism, and an Arabic channel which is quite different (according to Wikipedia, the Arabic channel is propaganda for the Muslim Brotherhood).

    In principle: No TV channel, newspaper etc. can stand without telling some truth. By comparing different stations, and looking for more if you doubt, you can get a broader view than listening to one source only.

    It's not about nightmare or pleasure - Nigel Farage is a liar. He lied about the Brexit, this is a fact. AFAIK he lied about Europe. So if you trust him you certainly believe some (or even many?) lies.

    If you like to believe lies, go on and listen to Farage, Trump and so on.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2019
  9. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Hi Helmut, the latest today is that PM May's plan got disapproved for a third time in Parliament today. Today is supposed to have been exit day, but I think it has been extended to April 12. I just got through watching it alive on You Tube.
     
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Well, what do you think about this verse in Daniel 7:24, since the little horn rises after the ten kings, the person being appointed (elected) by ten European leaders?

    And the three that didn't vote for him, get booted?

    Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2019
  11. helmut

    helmut Member

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    The EU has 28 members, without the UK it will be 27. There is no group of 10 which appoints anything.

    Nothing like this happened in the old days when the EEC had 10 members ...

    Well, Dan 7:24 is a comment on Dan 7:7-8, which predates Dan 7:13, the ascension of Christ to heaven. So whatever this verse is about, it is not about future, but about past (which was future for Daniel). I don't know which event before the ascension is meant (perhaps something that happens in the Roman civil wars of Caesar, August etc., or perhaps something in the Seleucid era?), but I don't think it is important for me to know.
     
  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    But they could reorganize in to representative districts of 2 or 3 countries, to make ten districts which the ten leaders would represent.

    I agree.

    If you go to Daniel 8:23 it is in the latter time of their (the transgressors) kingdom when the transgressors are come to the full, that the king of fierce countenance stands up.

    Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

    How I interpret that it is talking about the little horn person, the final form EU, and when the ten kings are in place.

    Daniel 7:7-8 is the vision of the fourth kingdom. Which the Roman Empire was in power before Jesus was born into this world. But it also is in the end times.
    because during the little horn's time the Kingdom of God is brought here to earth in Daniel 7:27 - when Jesus returns.
     
  13. helmut

    helmut Member

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    There is no reason to expect that.

    Dan 8 is about the Seleukid monarchs, not about any future (it was future for Daniel, but not for us).

    There is no reason to relate this to the EU.

    More important, this was the empire which was in power when the Son of man left earth on the clouds of heaven, and was brought before the throne of the Ancient of Days, Dan 7:13-14. There is nothing in Daniel that compels us to believe that this empire will be there afterwards.

    You don't understand, you don't want to understand.

    The OT prophets were not aware that Christ would come twice, like a person which sees mountain ranges in the distance and does not see there are several ranges, with deep valleys between them, but perceives only one range.

    They did not know the secret of the Church, Eph 3:5-6.

    Therefore, they jump from the first coming of Christ to the second, without any hint the seciond coming is another event.

    Why should we suppose that after Dan 7:25 (which is about Antioch IV.) there is a jump to the very end of time, and no jump between 7:25 and 7:26?
     
  14. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The jump is not from Daniel 7:25 to Daniel 7:26, but when the angel was explaining the vision to Daniel - in Daniel 7:24.

    24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

    Not Antiochus. Antiochus was of the Selucids, not the fourth empire, the Romans. The person has to be of the fourth empire.

    Daniel 9:26-27, the prince who shall come will be from the Romans. Daniel 7:27, the Kingdom of God comes to earth in the days of the little horn and the ten kings. The ten toes in Daniel 2.
    _____________________________________________________________

    I think there is another You Tube live of parliment activity on brexit tonight.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2019
  15. helmut

    helmut Member

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    How do you relate Dan 7:24-25 to Dan 11? The latter chapter is definitely about the Seleucids ...
     
  16. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Hi helmut, part of Daniel 11 is historic to us and is about the Seleucid's, the Ptolemy's, and the Romans.

    I say the Romans because they made Antiochus turn around when he was on his way to Egypt to remove the king there, that the Romans were supporting.

    The transition to the end times is in Daniel 11:35-36. The king in Daniel 11:36 is the end times person, and picks up after he has claimed to have achieved God-hood, somewhere in the middle of the 7 years. When he gets attacked, that is near the end of the 7 years, as the nations are drawn into the middle east.

    Then, unexpectedly, the events of the sixth seal take place. Unexpected like a thief in the night. Which, Satan, the beast, the false prophet convince the kings of the earth to unify their armies, already in the middle east, to gather together at Armageddon in a giant force, and march down to Jerusalem, to make war on Jesus, Who will descend down to earth and destroy those armies.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
  17. helmut

    helmut Member

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    The problem I have is, that you give no explanation, but declare your view without any proof, as if you are omniscient or at least an infallible exegete.
    A comparison with history shows that there is a jump somewhere between verse 30 and 40, but the story of him replacing his father, brother and nephew is alluded to in V.21-22, so he I think he is the horn. That may be incorrect, but there is no evidence against that interpretation.

    Anyway, Daniel should not be taken as the leading guide for future eschatology, because he is concentrated on the time before Jesus and gives only glimpses to the end (or sometimes some events have an eschatological "double").
     
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

    The above is before the 7 years start. And is not in Daniel 11.

    Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

    The above starts in the middle of the 7 years, and lasts a time, times, and half times. The second half of the 7 years, containing the great tribulation.

    The second half of the 7 years is where Daniel 11:36 begins. Daniel 11 does not include the first half of the 7 years.

    _____________________________________________________________

    Daniel 7:24 - before the 7 years begin
    Daniel 7:25 - covers the second half of the 7 years (the great tribulation)

    Daniel 11:3-34 - is historic to us, the Greeks, then the Seleucids and Ptolomey's.
    Daniel 11:30 - the Romans force Antiochus to return
    Daniel 11:31 - Antiochus commits the AoD type act
    Daniel 11:32 - The Maccabees do exploits against Antiochus's regime
    Daniel 11:33 - Christians leading many to Christ, many days, 2000 years.
    Daniel 11:34 - Christians, persecuted, didn't get much help from the gov't, until Constantine declared Christianity to be the state religion

    Daniel 11:35 - 2000 years of Christianity, transitions to the end times
    Daniel 11:36 - begins at the start of the second half of the 7 years (the great tribulation)
    *Daniel 11:40 - near the very end of the 7 years (near the end of the great tribulation)
    *Daniel 11:44 - near the very end of the 7 years (near the end of the great tribulation, Rev 16:12)
    *Daniel 11:45 - near the very end of the 7 years, 45 days before Jersus return, the events of the sixth seal takes place.

    *Daniel 11:40 - 45 = Zechariah 14:2
    __________________________________________________________


    1. The little horn starts as the leader of the EU (before the 7 years begin)

    2. Then becomes the prince who shall come (transitional role to becoming the Antichrist)

    3. Then becomes the Antichrist, King of Israel, begins the 7 years.

    4. Then, about 3 years later is revealed as the man of sin, disowned as the King of Israel. (transitional role, being the Antichrist over, and moves to becoming the beast)

    5. Then becomes the beast in the middle part of the 7 years - which is where Daniel 11:36 picks up.

    ____________________________________________________________

    The 7 years don't begin until after Gog/Magog and the 7 months.

    The outline of the endtimes, which contain the 7 years of Revelation 6-19, is found in Ezekiel 38-39.

    Ezekiel 38-39:

    1. Israel living in peace.

    2. Then Gog/Magog

    3. Then 7 months of burying the dead

    4. Then the 7 years - which everything in Revelation 6-19 takes place.

    5. Then Armageddon feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20

    6. Then Jesus Himself speaking Ezekiel 39:21-29 having returned to earth and recounting the past 2000 years of why the house of Israel was exiled into nations following rejecting Him as their King.

    ________________________________________________________________

    The second half of the 7 years contains the great tribulation which begin when the abomination of desolation image of the beast is set up.

    [​IMG]
    _______________________________________________________________

    The little horn in Daniel 7:24 comes to power before the 7 years begin, and before Gog/Magog begins. Here is the path to his destruction.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2019
  19. helmut

    helmut Member

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    Dan 7:24 does not say it is the beginning of seven years. I asked you to give reasons, not to utter assertions.

    Same with the rest of your post. Why don't you start with the Bible verses that build the basis for what you are saying, instead of reading into verses what is not in them? It may be that this reading-in is ok, but you did not show this from the Bible.
     
  20. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    helmut, I didn't say it was the beginning of the seven years.

    Here is what I said...Daniel 7:24 ...
    The above is before the 7 years start. And is not in Daniel 11.

    There is no way of telling how far before the 7 years begin. It could be months or years before the 7 years start.

    But from Revelation 12:3, the description of the beast (represented by Satan), the 7 heads have their crowns. Which in Revelation12, are the 7 years, which I get from Revelation 12:6 the 1260 days plus Revelation 12:14 the time, times, half time. Having their crowns indicates the King 7 (Revelation 17:10) has come to power - who is the little horn person.

    King 7 is the future to John; the yet to come king, who when he comes must continue a short space.

    So the ten kings rising out of the fourth kingdom, and then the little horn - would mean those things in Daniel 7:24 take place before the 7 years begin. The little horn person is in power before the 7 years begin.

    The heads and horns, crowns/no crowns - why they are different in Revelation 12, 13, 17 - is essential for understanding how to fit everything correctly on a timeline.

    Helmut, when you discuss with me - what I am thinking is "timeline". I am going to suggest to you to make an effort to understand those crowns/no crowns in Revelation 12, Revelation 13, Revelation 17.
    ________________________________________________________

    You asked for verses. I just gave them to you. Revelation 17:10 > the yet to come king (7) > Revelation 12:3 the heads have their crowns, completing the prophecy of the 7 kings in Revelation 17:10, which there are the 7 years in the text of Revelation 12. The little horn, thus, has to be in power before the 7 years begin.

    Revelation 17:3
    7 heads - no crowns
    10 horns - no crowns
    (the sixth head ruling at the time of John 1st century)

    Revelation 12:3
    7 heads - crowns
    10 horns - no crowns
    (the 7 years in Revelation 12)

    Revelation 13:1
    7 heads - no crowns
    1 head wounded mortally but come back to life
    10 horns - crowns
    (the last 42 months in Revelation 13)

    Helmut - you must learn those. It is not an option or side study. You cannot understand bible end times prophecies without learning the meaning to those.

    I make assertions to you because I understand the crowns/no crowns in those three verses.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2019
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