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Featured Brexit and bible prophecy

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Douggg, Mar 17, 2019.

  1. helmut

    helmut Member

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    As I said, you gave no reasons why you consider the 1260 days to be another period than the 3½ times.

    In Daniel, we have different periods, e.g. in Dan 13,11-12. There is no reason to think they are consecutive periods, they are the same period (with somewhat different delimitation). And there is no reason to see more than 3½ years in Rev 12, expressed differently, but it is the same situation: Jerusalem (old covenant) being safe for 1260days = 3½ times[=years]).

    No, it indicates the beast in contrast to its "father", the devil. And there is no mention of the horn in Revelation at all, it is pure speculation to read the horn, which is a Greek king, and the first one (Dan 8,212), into Revelation.

    Where do you get this chronology from?

    The first question is, why I should assume that the text intends to give us a "timeline" in spite of what Jesus said, that we are not allowed to know the situation when He returns.

    The second is: Why should I assume your timeline is correct? There are other possible ways to construct a "timelime", using other verses in the Bible and interpreting your verses differently. You didn't give a biblical reason why your timeline should be taken as correct. Having some verses ornamenting what you say is not enough.

    I know that I have to "learn" (=accept without asking) this to understand Revelation, Daniel etc. in the way you understand it. But this does not mean that this understanding is correct. You didn't show it from the Bible.

    It is a sort of circular reasoning: If I accept your teaching, I will understand the Bible in a way that confirms your teaching. And I should believe you that this is the correct understanding.

    I could also chose to listen to, say, catholic tradition, understand the Bible in light of this, so the Bible (understood as the RCC teaches) confirm the catholic tradition. Same principle.

    I don't have to learn catholic tradition, I don't have to learn your system and its timeline. I have to listen what the Bible says.
     
  2. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I was putting it in simplified terms when I wrote the 1260 days + the time, times, half time is the seven years.

    To be correct, it is 1260 days + the earth time that passes for the war in heaven to take place + the time, times, half time = the seven years, in Revelation 12:6-17.

    The time, times, half time is not an exact equivalent to 1260 days.

    1260 days first half of the 7 years
    earth time that passes (not specified) in the second half
    time, times, half time (also not specified in days) also in the second half
    _________________________________________
    7 years total


    ____________________________________________________________________

    The same goes for the 42 months. Those are not an exact equivalent to 1260 days.

    1260 days that the two witnesses testify + 3 1/2 days their bodies lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem, before coming to life and the two witnesses leaving this world + 1256.5 days which the beast will ruled unimpeded by the departed two witnesses, called 42 months.


    1260 days first half of the 7 years
    3 1/2 days in the second half
    1256.5 days in the second half
    ________________________

    2520 days (7 years) total

    Please review my chart again (or for the first time).
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
  3. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I explained in detail where I got that the events of Daniel 7:24 must take place before the 7 years begin in my post #140.

    You are wrong for that being the reason the 7 heads (kings) having their crowns in Revelation 12:3 - because they don't have their crowns in Revelation 13, and Revelation 17. Which king 7 and 8 gets his power from Satan in the text - but the seven heads don't have their crowns in Revelation 13:1.

    Try again. To understand why the crowns/no crowns is not a shoot from the hip exercise.

    It took me a lot of study and time - over 40 years - then only by God revealing to me the understanding, which I make no apology for.

    What you want to do is argue and not listen to learn something. You seem to think it is a few verses here, a few verses there, and presto - you understand some element of the end time prophecies. It doesn't work that way, everything is interconnected to fit in one correct big picture.

    The little horn comes out of the fourth empire (in the text of Daniel 7:23-24) - is not a Greek empire king - also is from the people who destroyed the city and sanctuary.
    What do you mean "not allowed to know the situation when He returns" ?

    You are welcomed to come up with your own timeline. What I can share with you, as a project engineer (retired) I developed timelines for projects for a living. For a biblical end times timeline, it is a similar process. And I have specifically said to you that you have to understand the meaning of the crowns/no crowns in Revelation 17:3, Revelation 12:6, Revelation 13:1 to get the timeline correct. I can also say that you cannot do it without God's direction.

    I have showed the timeline on my two charts.

    I have never said to you or anyone else not to study the bible, for themselves.
    helmut, you can choose anything you want. Examine what other sources say, study for your self, watch videos, read commentaries, pursue it anyway and extensive as you want.....

    But there is only one way that the end times prophecy events can fit correctly on the timeline. Just like there is only one way to be saved.

    Creation is on a timeline, events taking place, and event to take place, and events that have taken place.

    Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
  4. helmut

    helmut Member

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    Well the first question is whether it is a war or a legal fight. The text give more the impression of the latter, the Dragon (identified by several aliases) loses the right to accuse the saints and has no right to stay in heaven. This is the result of the child (= Messiah) coming to heaven in V.5. And while the child is safe, the mother is protected, V.6.

    The order of narration is logical, first what is on earth and then what is in heaven, and then, when the Dragon is cast to earth, on earth again. So there is no reason to think the 1260 days are another time that the 3½ tims, unless you bring evidence from other parts of the Bible.

    If you reckon one year as 12 moths, and a month as 30 days, you arrive at 1260 days. Biblical handling of times is seldom more precise, so your argument has no value.

    But to show that such a precision is what is meant, the first step would be to show me any passage in the bible where a month is not reckoned as 30 days. I know of none. If you can show me such a passage, I will think about whether Revelation uses the sloppy 1 year = 12 month = 360 days reckoning or whether there should be the precision you try to apply. If not, you have the Bible against your precision, full-stop.

    How on earth do you get at this. 42 moths are 1240.3 days, plus/minus an uncertainty of up to three days (because of the irregularities in the moon's orbit, and in the moment the new moon becomes visible after the astronomical new moon point). If you want to be precise, please be precise and do not mix our calendar (where a month has no connection to the moon) with the lunisolar calendar used in biblical times.

    I don't think we should discuss further points until these issues (your precision which seems to be alien to the Bible, and your not identifying the to periods in Rev 12,6.16) are solved. I told you what an experienced Bible reader like me prefers, and in the point of precision I'm rather certain you're wrong, the other is a matter of interpretation, I cannot prove your adding these two times is wrong (though the periods mentioned in Daniel, if they are allowed to enter here, hints to an identification of the two periods).
     
  5. helmut

    helmut Member

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    You got it from the assumption the Dragon was the Beast (in appearance), which I can't follow. You did not prove this assumption.

    Crowns in the dragon and not in the Beast - this does prove I'm wrong in saying that the difference whether there are crowns is dependent whether the Beast or the Dragon is described? What kind of logic is this?

    I'm ready to learn when I see somewhat has something I can learn. But I rather feel you may learn from me.

    At least I understand what the text says. As to the interpretation, I don't claim much knowledge. I don't think God gives knowledge that is not useful. And and there are plenty of persons in church history who after studying biblical prophecy claimed insights that turned out wrong. This warns against the next wise guy who comes and claim he is the one who "hacked" the code of Revelation.

    Acts 1:7 It is not for you to know times (χρονους) or seasons (καιρους), which the Father hath set within His own authority.

    The Greek χρονος stands for chronological time (even the word "chronological" is derived from χρονος), but καιρος is situation (or to say it in the words of Strong's dictionary: "always, opportunity, (convenient, due) season". Jesus said we cannot know the time or the situation when He returns. So a time-line which gives us a description of the situation when Jesus will come, cannot be right (because this would imply that Jesus was wrong).

    You don't understand the purpose of prophecy. It is not there to satisfy our wish to see the future, it is there to help the afflicted church. As I said, I seriously doubt that a timeline should be read out of Revelation.

    You don't know another way. But this may be a delusion, produced by building one hypothesis on the other, until other ways of interpretation are barred by hypotheses which are taken as facts.
     
  6. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    It is your understanding that has no value. It says in Revelation 12, 1260 days in in Revelation 12:6, but instead the time, times, half times in Revelation 12:14 for a reason.

    And the reason is as I explained.
    The 42 months are not in Revelation 12. No months are given in Revelation 12.
    I did not write 1240.3 days. I wrote 1256.5 days.

    I show on my chart how I get the 1256.5 days (the one beginning with the great tribulation at the top). And I also explained it to you. It has nothing to do with the moon's orbit. It comes from the text itself in Revelation.

    Specific to Revelation,
    the different timeframes are not exact equals. Conversion between timeframe units don't apply in Revelation. I am a retired engineer. I know all about conversion of units. inches to feet, feet to inches, etc..

    It is not 12:16, but 12:14. You need to start reading your text and going back and editing them. What you need to do is go read my post #95. I go through this material all the time.

    Pre-Trib Only - My New End Times Chronology
     
  7. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    No I don't. It is not because the dragon is a beast in appearance.

    The dragon in Revelation 12 is seen instead of the beast as in Revelation 13. Because the beast spirit (Revelation 17:8a) which comes out of the bottomless pit to possess the come back to life slain man of sin in Revelation 13, is still in the bottomless pit at the time when the 7 years begin in Revelation 12.

    Go to Jason's thread on his chronology. I explain Revelation 12, why it is about Israel in the 7 years. And he got it....

    start with my post #84, then Jason's post #85, then my post #86

    Pre-Trib Only - My New End Times Chronology
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  8. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Jesus was responding to the specific question by the disciples if he were going to restore the kingdom to Israel right then. In hindsight, He was basically telling them no, not in their day. The prophecies as it says in Daniel 12 have been sealed from understanding until the end times.

    helmut, I bolded and color coded some of your text, highlighting it. What you wrote is the bottom line...a self imposed closed mind.

    We have gone way off topic of this thread. I would like to get back on topic.
     
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  9. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    brexit pharisees.jpg
     
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    PM is in Brussels, today, to try and get an extension to brexit. We will see what the EU says.

    This has been a real education for me of how the UK parliament operates, the processes... watching the You Tube videos.
     
  11. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    News just in. The EU gave a six month extension for brexit delay request by the UK, to October 31. The brexit was supposed to take place by 31 March 2019, deal or no deal to the divorce.

    UK in turmoil because the people voted in favor of brexit, but the politicians (who really don't want brexit) are doing every effort to make brexit not happen.
     
  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Nigel Farage just launched his new "brexit party" to put the brexit exit on track. "brexit" the most googled word in the english language - interestingly. The world is watching what is going on in the EU, 1st largest economy in the world.
     
  13. helmut

    helmut Member

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    This is your opinion. I'm not sure which reason you "explained", I only remeber explanations that I refuted.

    This does not touch my critic, I mentioned 42 months=1260 days along with 3½ years=1260 days.

    But the correct value for 42 months (if you want to use exact numbers) is 1240.3±3 days, not 1256.5 days. And no, the 1256.5 are not in the text of Revelation, you derive it. And I can't see how you get at them. 3½ years are 42 to 43 months; depending which years are meant, and how to reckon the half of a 13-month-year, you get at 42 months (1240.3 days), 42.5 month (1255.0 days), or 44 months (1299.3 days). all with an uncertainty of 3 days, there is no way to arrive at 1256.5 days by subtracting 3.5±3 days (i.e. 0.5 to 6.5 days) from one of these values. And if the 1260 days are not 3½ years, you can't add up to 7 years.

    You did not show any example where a month is not reckoned as 30 days (rounded value), so you gave no reason why the 3½ years should not be the 1260 days (and the 42 months).

    You don't work with exact numbers, as I showed above, and the usual way time is reckoned in the Bible leads to 42 months = 1260 days (always that way in the Bible) and 3½ years=42 month (mostly that way), so the times frames can be considered as equal.

    Maybe this is your problem - you are not prepared for biblical rounding as π=3 in 2.Chr 4:2. And you don't seem to know much on time units used in Biblical times (i.e. lunar month and lunisolar year).

    Sorry for the typo.
     
  14. helmut

    helmut Member

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    You lost me. According to Revelation, the Dragon evokes the two beasts (the Beast and the False Prophet) in Rev 13. We have a sort of satanic "trinity".

    You argue from a timeline that is questionable, to derive at a conclusion you use to support this timeline. Circular reasoning.

    Why can't you give a biblical proof of one of your claims without using another claim of you?
     
  15. helmut

    helmut Member

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    There was a feature in a German TV channel on the brexit, with many details. It was shocking to see how Farage used lies (e.g. Turkey being on the verge to enter EU, which is blatantly false) and stirred up xenophobia and used the hope of regaining former glory of the British empire. The reasons why Britains voted for Brexit remind me why Germans voted for Hitler back than (though Farage is not that bad as Hitler).

    Not generally, but the day after the referendum. People who were not that much interested woke up and looked what was decided ...
     
  16. andy b

    andy b Newbie Supporter

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    Brexit is the British reply to the George Soros attempt to de christianize Europe......the EU will collapse without the UK the eastern block counties can already sense it's a mistake joining
     
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  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    It is 1260 days that the two witnesses prophesy, Revelation 11:3. Plus another 3 1/2 days that their bodies lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem, Revelation 11:8-11, before coming back to life and leaving this world.

    1260 days
    + 3.5 days
    1263.5 days

    7 years x 360 days/year = 2520 days

    ..2520 days
    - 1263.5 days
    ..1256.5 days left in the 7 years, which the bible calls 42 months in Revelation 13.5 that the beast will .....................................................rule unimpeded by the two witnesses.
     
  18. helmut

    helmut Member

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    Soros is a man who one the one hand gathers money without much scruples, on the other hand he is trying to do good things as a sort of compensation, sometimes supporting groups that even interfere with his business interests.

    I can't see that he has the objective to de-Christianize Europe. In fact, Europe is already de-Christianized to a not small degree, due to French Revolution and the outcomes (especially in France, of course, but also in other countries), to Communism, and to "capitalistic" secularization (love of wealth is a source of every evil, 1Tim 5:10).

    Soros is demonized by Orban and other liars, you are evidently victim of their propaganda.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
  19. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    That's a good comment. One of the big problems the UK has is free travel within the EU, which muslims are flooding into the UK.

    Allowing muslims to enter the EU in mass numbers has been a disaster. The muslims are using it as an unofficial invasion to take over Europe.

    The backlash has been an uprise in populist movements in EU countries like Italy.

    Ultimately, I think one of the platforms the little horn person will rise on is an anti-muslim position. The little horn person will be a Jew, and also be descended from the Romans.
     
  20. helmut

    helmut Member

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    If you use rounded values like this, there is no use to make a difference between 3½ years and 3½ years minus 3½ days.

    7 years are 86 or 87 months, i.e. 2539.6 or 2569.2 days (±3 days). As you see, the difference between the rounded values used by biblical authors and the real values is greater than 3½ days.

    But to the core of the problem: I can draw practical consequences from what I understand from revelation, without having a timeline and knowing who the Beast will be. Does your vision allow you that, or is it pure speculation (in the original sense of "looking at") without influence to your daily life?
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
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