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Featured Brexit and bible prophecy

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Douggg, Mar 17, 2019.

  1. helmut

    helmut Member

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    ADDITION: Well, we may infer His return from the description of Him ruling the earth ...
     
  2. helmut

    helmut Member

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    Even if I overlook the equation of the 4th beast in Dan 7 with the Beast (which is a mistake, since by logic the Beast can be equated with the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd beast as with the 4th beast), you are mixing things up:
    The 7th horn is part of the Beast, and not the Beast himself.

    BTW: There is no 8th horn in Revelation ...
     
  3. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    It was prophesied that some of them living right then of the disciples would see Jesus coming into his Kingdom.

    In Acts 1, some of the disciples saw Jesus leave this earth coming to his Kingdom, which he came into his Kingdom in heaven in Daniel 7:13-14.
    His Kingdom - the Kingdom of Heaven, has not been brought here to this earth as the Kingdom of God
    because that doesn't happen until the ten kings are in power (Daniel 2) and the little horn comes to power, who eventually become the beast.

    The little horn person persecutes the saints, until judgment comes on him and his kingdom, which is Jesus returning to this earth to establish the King of God on this earth as the ruling Kingdom having dominion over all earthly kingdoms.
     
  4. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I thinking you are getting mixed up on the heads and horns. I think you mispoke when you said "7th horn".

    There are ten horns on the beast in Daniel 7. But what we are concerned with is the little horn. Which is a king unto itself. The ten horns are other kings.

    The head on the fourth beast in Daniel 7 is the 8th king in Revelation. The little horn on his head in Daniel 7, is the 7th king (head) in Revelation 17, of the Julio-Claudian kings.

    the little horn in Daniel 7 fourth beast = the 7th head in Revelation 17:10
    the head in Daniel 7 fourth beast = the beast of Revelation 13

    The little horn is the 7th king.
    The beast (who as a unclean spirit currently in the bottomless pit) is the 8th king, by possessing the 7th king when he is killed and comes back to life.

    I don't know that I am explaining all this clearly, because it is a complex topic. I think I need to make an illustration of sorts.

    Words alone are not enough - can we agree with that?
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  5. helmut

    helmut Member

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    Where is that prophesied? I only remember the prophecy that they will be alive when the kingdom comes with power, which was fulfilled at Pentecost.

    This is not the only way one can explain this prophecy.

    You still argue with a full-structured system that is built in sand, for Jesus told we are not allowed to know such things. We have no master plan, we have images that will help us to discern the signs of out time. We will (hopefully) discern the Beast when it emerges, but there is no promise we will know it before.
     
  6. helmut

    helmut Member

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    Which means the 7th king (or his kingdom) is part of the 8th king(dom). Doesn't look like sound exegesis.

    And again: Do not try to build a whole scenario of when Jesus comes back. We don't know. neither the year nor the situation. He will come by surprise.
     
  7. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The 7th king, the 7th head in Revelation 17:10 is of the fourth empire. There is no 8th kingdom. You are misrepresenting what I have said all along, and what is written in Daniel 7 and Daniel 2. The ten kings and the little horn person are of the fourth empire.

    Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

    Of course, what you are saying, Satan would want me to do. If you don't agree or like my chart - then fine. But you should not be telling people not to pursue understanding bible prophecy.

    .
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  8. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
     
  9. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    There is only one right explanation of the prophecy. There are a million wrong explanations of the prophecy.

    The text of the bible is not sand. What "master plan" are you talking about? And what "full structured system"? You are using terms that you create which you have to yourself the meaning of.

    You seem to be saying bible prophecy cannot be understood... and understood correctly. Which I totally disagree. The wise shall understand.

    Daniel 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

    9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

    10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
     
  10. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    I don't know any Muslims that are interested in attacking *anyone* or *any* armed forces (which is why I shared the very public story of the London terrorist attack where the imam protected the one that attacked his Mosque from any harm). Muslims believe that justice is in the hands of God. He is the only just One and has the authority over all. Taking matters into their own hands is strictly forbidden (and demonstrates a lack of faith in God). There are fundamentalists/extremists in ALL religious faiths - but each faith shouldn't be defined by their extremes (that would be like defining Christianity based on the Westboro cult).

    You seem to be gathering your information from propaganda and not actually speaking to Muslims directly and asking THEM what they believe (and from what I know about Christianity - that's considered "bearing false witness against your neighbor" and something that Jesus and His disciples warned against).

    From Yahya, Harun (1 January 2008). Clarity Amidst Confusion: Imam Mahdi and the End of Time. Global Publishing. Kindle Edition. p. 64 ~
    Jesus in Islam
    Isa
    is the Arabic name for Jesus, and his return is considered the third major sign of the last days (the second being the appearance of Jesus's nemesis Masih ad-Dajjal). Although Muhammad is the preeminent Prophet in Islam, Jesus is mentioned in the Quran, and so is Idris (Enoch), who is said not to have died but to have been raised up by God.[44] Thus, in accordance with post-Quranic hadith, Jesus conceivably will return to Earth as a just judge before the Day of Judgment.[45] As written in hadith:

    Abu Hurayrah narrates that the Messenger of God said, "By Him in whose hands my soul rests! It is definitely close in that time that Isa, Son of Maryam descends amongst you as a just ruler. He will break the cross, kill the swine and abolish jaziya. And money will abound in such excess that no one will accept it.​
    — Ahmad bin Hambal, al-Musnad, vol 2, p. 240[28]

    Hadith reference both the Mahdi and Isa simultaneously and the return of the Mahdi will coincide with the return of Isa, who will descend from the heavens in al-Quds at dawn. The two will meet, and the Mahdi will lead the people in fajr prayer. After the prayer, they will open a gate to the west and encounter Masih ad-Dajjal. After the defeat of ad-Dajjal, Isa will lead a peaceful forty-year reign until his death. He will be buried in a tomb beside Muhammad in Medina.[46] Though the two certainly differ regarding their role and persona in Islamic eschatology, the figures of the Mahdi and Isa are ultimately inseparable, according to the Prophet. Though Isa is said to descend upon the world once again, the Mahdi will already be present.

    What will be your reaction when the son of Mary (Jesus) descends and your Imam is from among yourselves? (Sahih Muslim, bab nuzul 'isa, Vol. 2; Sahih Bukhari, kitab bad' al-khalq wa nuzul 'isa, Vol. 4)

    Quoting from Isa and Islam ~

    The Hadith states that Dajjal will appear in the last days somewhere between Syria and Iraq. He will try to deceive the whole world and declare himself God! But Dajjal will eventually be slain by the Great Servant of God. And not only will Dajjal be slain, but all the people who followed him will be killed by the great Servant of God. So, who is this mighty and great Servant of God?

    Isa Al-Masih Will Kill Dajjal and All His Followers
    According to the Sunni Hadith, Isa Al-Masih is that great Servant of God. Isa will descend from heaven in the last days with two angels. They will battle Dajjal and all the people who embraced his evil. Isa will be victorious and kill Dajjal and everyone who followed him. The Sunni Hadith states that, “All those who embraced the evil of Dajjal shall perish even as the breath of Isa touches them.”(2)

    Isa Will Bring Peace to the World
    After the final battle, Isa will bring peace on earth. The Hadith states that, “Then all battles shall cease and the world will know an age of peace. Then truly the sheep will lie in the shadow of the wolf without fear. The rule of Isa will be just and all shall flock to him to enter the folds of the one true religion, Islam.”(2) The word Islam, of course, is derived from the Arabic root “Salema” which merely means peace, purity, submission and obedience.

    God has Given All Authority to Isa. He will Reign as King!
    God has given the greatest honor and authority ever known to His servant, Isa Al-Masih (Jesus, the Messiah, e.g. Jesus Christ). God wants all people to believe in Him and follow him. Isa said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6).Are you ready for the return of Isa Al-Masih? Have you read what Isa Himself says in the Bible about the end of days? And about the destruction of the Anti-Christ and all the people who did not accept Isa’s testimony? ~ The Battle of Isa and Dajjal - Isa And Islam
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  11. gideon123

    gideon123 Humble Servant of God

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    I cant tell you where the Bible prophecy joins up with the real world, and I doubt that anybody can. I do think that it is wise for Christians to have a strong ongoing relationship with Jesus.

    It appears rhat the World is not only fragile ... it is highly vulnerable to major political change at rhe current time. We are in a part of human history where very turbulent changes are likely to happen. It is very likely that they will be accompanied by major violence and war. How many warning signs do we need? Set aside the Books of Daniel and Revelations. Look at world events over the last 2-3 years. We are not moving towards a future that is predictable, well thought-out, and stable.

    Unfortunately, in the current political climate (with low stability), it plays into the hands of opportunists and leaders who exploit base emotions. This in turn opens the door to all kinds of philosophies that are extreme and divisive. We are seeing this happen on a daily basis. The world is becoming conflict-driven, and some leaders are exploiting this.

    Christ calls on us to remain at Peace in the Lord, and to have no involvement in violence, lies and deceit. Those believers who stand firm to the end will be rewarded.

    Best wishes to the UK with the Brexit decision. But it really looks like Europe will undergo tumultous change. This is much bigger than just Britain vs. EU.

    Blessings!
     
  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Agreed. And everything seems to be based on lies. Whether it is fake news or the central banks manipulating the stock markets.

    Agreed. It looks like the world is looking for some man who knows the answers.
    This is when a person needs to know the bible and not be in darkness.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  13. helmut

    helmut Member

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    As to king vs. kingdom, I was not sure and so wrote both options. But there is still the problem:
    The head of the 4th beast (=the 8th king according to what you said) is part of this beast (=the 7th king).

    So you say the 8th king is part of the 7th king.

    I don't tell they should not understand biblical prophecy. The first step in understanding is the purpose of biblical prophecy. If you don't get that right, your purpose will lead into the wrong direction.

    If I understand that I'm wrong, I will correct my view and, if necessary, repent. But you did not show to me how Acts 1:8 should be understood so as to allow to build a scenario when Jesus comes back. The text of Acts 1:8 speaks against that, the parable of the thief speaks against that. So I conclude it is you who drags people away from correct understanding of Biblical prophecy by setting up an objective we are not allowed to pursue.
     
  14. helmut

    helmut Member

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    Ah, I see. So Mt 16:28 is about the ascension, not His return to earth.
     
  15. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    No.

    I would package that differently.

    The little horn is part of the fourth beast of Daniel 7 - part of that kingdom.

    The head on the fourth beast of Daniel 7 - is also part of that kingdom

    And the little horn person is the seventh head in Revelation 17. Which continues the short space of 42 months, after being mortally wounded and comes back to life - some time in the middle part of the 7 years.

    Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

    1. Julius Caesar
    2. Augustus Caesar
    3. Tiberius
    4. Caligula
    5. Claudius
    6. Nero
    7. little horn person, the 7th king, who continues a short space
    8. little horn person come back to life, to become the beast king, ruling 42 months.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  16. helmut

    helmut Member

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    Well, a prophecy can have more than one fulfilment. But even if we assume there is a singular fulfiolment, the question remains: If there is more than one way, which is correct? You do not show why your version of exegesis is correct, so why should I believe you?

    Of course not. But using it for something it should not be used is sand.

    Anything of the form: This will happen, then that, and then ... and the Jesus will come.

    Interpreting the texts according to your system, instead looking for what they say.

    No, I say that a correct understanding of prophecy will not lead to a contradiction of what Jesus said: We are not entitled to no the time or situation when Jesus comes back.

    The really wise men have always understood to read the time of their ages, to discern deception from true wisdom. Others thought they were wise and foretold Jesus would come back in 1871, 1914, 1996 and so on. Or that Napoleon was the Beast, and so on. They build on sand, because they thought they could calculate the time when Jesus comes back, or the situation.
     
  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Why should I answer your question?
    I don't have a "system". And haven't used the word "system".
     
  18. helmut

    helmut Member

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    He will break the cross ...
    Is this our Jesus? Or is `Isa another Jesus?
     
  19. helmut

    helmut Member

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    Well, if you can't give a reason why your system is right ...

    You didn't use the word. But the way you are connecting passages from the Bible without explaining why they should be connected in this way shows that you have a system.

    Or lets take your handling of the 7 (8) kings: You span them over two millenia, from Caesar to the epiphany of Jesus. There is nothing in the text that points to such a thing - you are forced to that because you set the end points such in your system.

    Instead a huge gap between the 7th and the 8th king, it seems wiser to set the gap visible in Daniel, when he jumps from the ascension in to the Millenium. So the kings must be either placed before the ascension or in the very last time, not in between 32 AD and, say 1900 AD (the second figure could be set higher, but I want to avoid a discussion how much higher).
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  20. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Muslims recognize the same Jesus we do. They just don't recognize Him as God. They believe He is a holy messenger/prophet of God.
     
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