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Featured Brexit and bible prophecy

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Douggg, Mar 17, 2019.

  1. helmut

    helmut Member

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    I hope your account of that was biased to counter a pro-Jewish bias common in some quarters. If not: I miss the points where the Arabs did wrong. e.g. the cooperation of the Jerusalem Mufti with Hitler.

    Sometimes it was sheer foolishness. When the Arabs did not cooperate with the UN about a plan to divide Palestine, all they got was a plan rather close to what those said who did cooperate (the Zionists). When they fought about that, they were defeated and got even less than the 1947 plan.

    PS: I said "Arabs" and not "Palestinians", for this would be an anachronism. Everyone that used the word "Palestinian" to refer to a human in 1947, he meant a Jew born in Palestine. The meaning of that word changed in the 1960s.
     
  2. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    In Daniel 7.
    1st beast - one head
    2nd beast - one head
    3rd beast - four heads
    4th beast - one head (the 8th king of Revelation), the little horn on the head (the 7th king of Revelation)

    Those 7 heads in Daniel 7 are not all the same 7 heads on the beast of Revelation 17, 13, 12.

    The number count of the heads in Daniel 7 and Revelation is the same, but they are not the same 7 kings. Only the head on the Daniel 7 fourth beast is in Revelation.

    To make the connection, between Daniel 7 and Revelation, it is all about the fourth kingdom of Daniel 7. The Roman empire.

    In Revelation, the seven heads on the beast in Revelation are (Julio-Claudian family kings) ...
    1st head Julius Caesar
    2nd head Augustus Caesar
    3rd head Tiberius Caesar
    4th head Caligula
    5th head Claudius
    6th head Nero
    7th head The end times little horn person

    4th beast of Daniel 7 - one head (the 8th king), the little horn on the head (the 7th king)

    The little horn person will be killed and come back to life as king 8 - of the Roman Empire of the Julio Claudian family line.

    In Revelation 13, the amalgamation appearance of the beast inclusion of the three historic empires of Daniel 7, indicates that with 42 months left in the 7 years, the end time Roman Empire, the EU, will have gained control of the territories once held by those 3 historic empires.
    _____________________________________________________________________

    The reason to watch is that it is all about change to the EU, into becoming the ten leader form of government of which the little horn person will be over that ten.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  3. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Jesus said no one knows the day nor hour of His coming. We don't know the hour of the day, nor the exact day.

    But the times. The parable of the fig tree is intended to give the times.

    The fig tree is Jerusalem based upon Jesus cursing the fig tree beside the road, before entering Jerusalem that passover week, knowing that Jerusalem would reject him as king.

    Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews 1967. A generation according to Psalms 90:10 is 70 years. So the times are now, and all of the prophecies fulfilled by...

    1967+70 = 2037, it would appear.

    So with the Gog/Magog nations, some of them Russia and Iran, nudging Israel's borders in Syria. And change coming in the EU. To me, it the prime time season.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  4. helmut

    helmut Member

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    "Perfectly fine"? The UK was one of the weaker economies in the EEC (now EU) and therefore got financial help from Brussels (taken, of course, from other countries). Then the economy got stronger (due to this help, to "Thatcherism", and to whatever else), weaker economies joined Europe, and so the UK had to pay instead to receive. But Thatcher did refuse this, and so the UK got a special treatment. Especially the threat to leave the EEC or later to leave the EU let the European politicians give in to special treatment of the UK, though the UK eventually had to pay some money to Brussels.

    When the Brexit was voted for, the EU naturally wanted her money back, this was the first surprise to those who were told the opposite of the truth.

    The core is Northern Ireland and the "backstop". There should be a tariff wall between the EU (including the Irish republic) and England (brexitiers want that, of course), but there should neither be a tariff well between Eire and Northern Ireland (both DUK an the republic demand that), and there should be no tariff wall between Northern Ireland and England. A problem the May government could not solve, so they demanded a "backstop" which means there should be no tariff wall between UK and EU until a solution was found. This became part of the deal. Which turned out not to be popular among Tories ...

    It is not a matter of being entangled, the UK does not know what it (she?) wants. May wanted the backstop, brexetiers wanted rather no deal than a "soft" brexit, labour wanted to put May into a position where she had to resign, ... there is nothing which could be called the wish of the UK. And many people now just want an end to that theater, no matter which end.

    The EU does not want to restart a negotiation process between the UK on one side and 28 countries (some of them with special interests that not always concur) on the other side. So this deal or no deal. Only a major change as a new PM or a new referendum will change this (apart from cosmetical changes like those we have seen in the past weeks).

    I remember when similar things were told about Japan. China is not that strong that it is "irreversible". But it certainly has the possibility to become the wealthiest country in the 2030's. But maybe China will experience a backlash and stay not that rich. I don't know.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  5. helmut

    helmut Member

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    You missed the point. The 4th beast in Dan 7 is not the Beast in Rev 13, so the horn you mentioned is no part of the Beast.

    Rev 13 shows a Beast that is mixed from all 4 beasts in Dan 7. Those beasts are gone, they existed until the Messiah (Jesus) came about 2,000 years ago. Rev 13 is another beast, with features of the Daniel beasts - which means they are comparable or so. But not the same, there are millenia between them.

    No. It is about another empire, not to equated with any of the four, though there are connections.

    he was no emperor, the first one being Augustus.

    According to your scheme this should be Vespasian. He died in 79 from a sudden illness.

    There is a G7 which consists of eight members, one being cast out now (and he came later than the others). As you see, there are different ways to interpret Revelation, future will tell whether one of them is correct.
     
  6. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    The chart was interesting but speculative. The fourth Kingdom in Daniel was originally Rome and was smashed by the Kingdom of God. The arrival of Jesus, the cross and then the second coming giving us an account of how it was/will be smashed. Daniel 7 (rev 17) speaks of a variation of this last kingdom that will fill the earth, is characterised by violence ("trampling", "crushing") and ultimately by a Blasphemous evil leader who will denounce God and speak against his church and who with the ten horns will make war against the church.

    So this does not fit the EU for several reasons:

    1) It is not characterised by violence and oppression. In fact it is one of the most peaceful places to live on earth and with a far lower violent crime rate than the USA for instance
    2) It is not a global world organisation and indeed is currently faced with boundaries that make global expansion unlikely e.g. Corruption in the Ukraine and Russia, Islamism and dictatorship in Turkey, the failed states of Muslim North Africa and of course BREXIT. At the moment it is not even the main focus of power in the world - that is the USA with China breathing down its neck.
    3) As yet it has not established its Anti-Christian credentials indeed with its welfare for the poor and sick and its affirmation of freedom of religion it is perhaps the most culturally Christianised continents on the planet.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  7. helmut

    helmut Member

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    Acts 1:8 says the opposite.

    When someone comes with a crafty paper which proves that 2+2=5, you know this is wrong even if you can't detect any particular fault in this paper.

    When someones comes with a proof that Jesus will return in 2027, you know he is wrong even if he backs up his claim with many references to Scripture and logical arguments.

    And when someone comes with a scenario when Jesus will come back, I know he is wrong, even if he backs up his claim with many references to Scripture and logical arguments.

    Talk about Acts 1:8 and show me I am wrong there, nothing else will help. And do not rely on a translation, I referred to the original Greek.
     
  8. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    Yes while we have clues as to its character in Daniel and Revelation its geopolitical positioning is something we do not really know about

    What is the difference between "dictator for life" and emperor.

    Rev 17 talks about the ten kings as yet to come

    G7 > 10 is a definite alternative. If the A/C could secure the 3 top countries in that mix he would be globally dominant.
     
  9. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The fourth beast in Daniel 7 existed at the time of Jesus, the Roman Empire. It is the kingdom of iron in Daniel 2. Which in the end times is the kingdom of iron mixed with clay.

    The little horn person and the ten kings come from the fourth kingdom, in the text of Daniel 7:23-24. The little horn person, and his kingdom, comes to his end when Jesus returns and brings the Kingdom of God to be the ruling kingdom over all kingdoms of the earth.

    The destruction of his kingdom, the fourth kingdom, is in Daniel 7:11

    The judgment on the little horn is Daniel 9:26.

    So the fourth kingdom is in power when Jesus returns. It is the kingdom of the beast in Revelation 13.

    In Daniel 9:26, the prince who shall come is from the people who destroyed the city and sanctuary, the Romans.
    ___________________________________________________________________

    In the list of 7 kings of Revelation 17:10, the kings don't have to have the title of emperor, but leaders of the fourth kingdom, which Julius Caesar, a self declared dictator for life was the first of the Julio-Claudian family kings over the fourth kingdom. And that family-line was in charge at the time of Jesus and the destruction of the city and sanctuary.

    Nero was the last of the historic Julio-Claudian kings. The next dynasty were the Flavians.

    The little horn person will be of the Julio-Claudian family. He will also be a Jew.
    __________________________________________________________________

    There are million ways to interpret Revelation - wrong. But only one way to interpret Revelation - right.

    The G7 theory doesn't fit because the sixth king was ruling at the time of John, 1st century.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The original Roman Empire was. The EU is not in its final form, nor is being lead by the little horn person -yet. A modern day example of the transition would be Germany under Hitler, during which time the Jews were sent to the gas chambers on a genocide mission of violence.

    The little horn person himself, who will at one point will be perceived by the Jews as their messiah and anointed the King of Israel, transitions from being their messiah, to being their persecutor when they reject his claim of having achieved God-hood.

    A similar transition to evil is recorded about Satan in Ezekiel 28.

    14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

    15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

    16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

    _______________________________________________________________________

    Ezekiel 28:1-10, the code name prince of Tyre is about the person when he commits the transgression of desolation, to sit in the temple of God, declaring himself to be God.

    Ezekiel 28:12-19, the code name king of Tyre is about Satan, who's desire is to be worshiped like God.

    It is not hard to see the influence of Satan on the end times person.
     
  11. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    There is nothing crafty in the math about adding 1967 to 70 to get 2037.

    Acts 1:8 does not take away from the intent of parable of the fig tree. Jesus responded to the disciples' question in Acts whether he was right then going to return the Kingship of David (implied) to Israel, in Acts 1:6.

    He basically told them He is not saying... because it was up to the Father to say, when the times and seasons are right.

    Which to know when the time and seasons are right, it goes to all the prophecies that God has given regarding the end times. At the time the disciples ask of Jesus - Revelation had not been given to man. So they could not know without having received Revelation.

    The disciples still had hope that Jesus would come in their day, even after what he said to them in Acts.

    The difference between now and then is we have the completed bible and all the signs that this is the end times and Jesus will come in this generation.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  12. helmut

    helmut Member

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    Caesar ruled a rather short time. The last open enemies were defeated in 45, so depending how you define "rule" he ruled one to four years, and was killed.

    Augustus ruled 44 years, the years in conflict with Caesar's murders and with Antonius not included. He changed the republic with exceptional cases of "dictator"ship (the dictator ruling had been misused several rimes in the century before him) into a system where no revolt took place when it was clear he had an heir to follow him.

    In modern sense, "dictator" is rather illegal leader ruling by force, while "emperor" is legal leader ruling by tradition.

    douggg did not talk about the 10 kings in Rev 17:12-14, but of the 7 (or 8) kings in Rev 17:9-11. These are two groups of kings, whatever their relationship may be.

    The term "antichrist" is never used in Revelation. Where it appears in the Bible it denotes not an emperor, but a false teacher. If the antichrist (in the Biblical sense of the word) is depicted in Rev 13, it is rather the second beast (called the False Prophet) than the first one. But even that identification can be doubted.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  13. helmut

    helmut Member

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    No. Daniel does not distinguish between the first and second coming of Christ.Nor did Isaiah when he speaks of the birth of Jesus and then (without any hint of a gap) about His rule on earth. The OT propheties did not know the secret of the Church, and nothing about the time of the Church, this was revealed to Paul (though Paul does not prophecy any details of world history). Even Jesus, who did not know when He will come back (Mk 13:32), mixed the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD with the End of the world, without knowing what happened you would not be able to decide which things in Mk 13 or parallel passages is about 70 AD and which about His return.

    This prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD.

    Show me where in Revelation the kings of rev 17:10 are called leaders of the fourth kingdom. The beast in Rev 17 is the Beast of rev 13, not one of the beasts in Dan 7.

    Really? Part of what Daniel prophesies is about Antioch IV. "Epiphanes", the horn is usually taken to denote him. A prophecy may have more than one fulfilment.

    There is also the possibility that one who gets things in Revelation wrong understands the signs of his time right in the light he has got from Revelation, while one who tries to understand the "only one true" reading of this text misses what is important to understand his own time, being entangled in a future he does not understand.

    And you really believe he is alive today?

    The Roman Empire is history, long gone. We live in a time Daniel says nothing about (skipping from Jesus' ascension to his ruling in the millenia in Dan 7).

    There are cases where it is a matter of definition whether two empires are the same or distinct. One might argue that the first three beasts in Dan 7 are not distinct empires, but different dynasties of the same empire. Whether Eastern Rome (after the split of the Roman empire), a Latin empire, and the Greek Byzantine empire are the same or distinct, is a matter of discussion. And so on ...

    There are also tricks which allow some people to identify empires that were different by common sense (and by judgement from all historians). August was Pharaoh over Egypt (which, legally speaking, was no part of the Roman empire in his time), the following Roman emperors were called Pharaoh in Egypt (though it soon became a rather normal Roman province), so one might say that Roman Empire and Egypt were the same?

    The tricks used to say Roman was still there in the Middle Ages and subsequent times are even more far-fetched than the Egypt-Roman example above.

    And I say again: Had the Bible the intention to tell world history, we should expect prophecies that allowed to predict Genghis Khan or the British empire. There are no such prophecies, I don't see any prophecy about the Brexit, and I don't see any OT prophecy that speaks of the Beast in Rev 13 or 17. Anyone who looks for this is misguided.
     
  14. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    It is important to note that the term "antichrist" is never used in Revelation - because Revelation is geared to the person in the role of being the King of the Roman Empire.

    The term Christ applies to being the King of Israel, which Jesus was rejected by the Jews as their King of Israel, although the was the one sent to be their King.

    Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
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    John 12:12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

    13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

    The concept of the Antichrist, is when the arch villain of the end times is in the role of being the King of Israel, instead of and against the rightful King of Israel, Jesus. The person will be thought of as a good guy at the time, riding the white horse in Revelation 6, given a crown, i.e. anointed the king of Israel.

    Until he turns and reveals himself to be the man of sin. And goes on to be the beast of Revelation, teamed up with the ten kings of the end times Roman Empire.

    Which it is imperative to grasp the two concepts....

    as the little horn and beast roles - the King of the Roman Empire.
    as the Antichrist - the King of Israel.

    Being the prince who shall come is a "transitional role" to becoming the Antichrist. And being the revealed man of is a "transitional role" to becoming the beast, no longer the Antichrist. Which as you pointed out, the term Antichrist is not mentioned in Revelation.

     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  15. helmut

    helmut Member

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    I said 2027 - but oops: Do you really want to say Jesus will come back in 2037?

    This parable is about 70 AD, but of course it has a wider meaning, a general warning to those who do not the will of Jesus.

    No he told them they are not entitled to be told, for this knowledge is "up to the father".

    He didn't say anything to the contrary. Remember the parable of the thief: we are not told when He will come, lest we sleep until the time of His coming is really near. No, He will come by surprise, like a thief does not announce the day or time when he will come to break in. Maybe even before you can read this lines (ok, we will know very soon whether or not ...)

    We are still the ones that are not entitled to know (as to Jesus, there is reason to think he now knows, but we are not Jesus).
     
  16. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Are you talking about Daniel 7?

    Daniel 7 is about Jesus's second coming, which he will establish the Kingdom of God to rule over the other kingdoms of this earth - with a rod of iron, so that man will not be making war and such.

    The one like the son of man in Daniel 7:13-14, is Jesus coming into his Kingdom, (the heaven side of him ascending in Acts1 leaving this earth) who will have dominion over all people, nations, and language. Christians even now say in the Lord's prayer may Your Kingdom come...

    Which comes in Daniel 7:27, as the little horn and his kingdom will be destroyed in Daniel 7:26.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I wrote 2037, I figured you just made a typo. I am not projecting a year that Jesus returns. I am saying that all of the prophecies will be fulfilled by 2037. A generation is three score and ten, but if by strength a man's day could be eighty.

    There has to be space for the 7 years, so that would mean the confirmation of the covenant sometime before the end of 2030. Not that far away.

    A lot of activity going on now.
     
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The parable of the fig tree we will know the times because that generation not passing away is included in the parable.
     
  19. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I am certain that the 7th king, the one who when he comes continues for a short space (the 42 months) as the beast, the 8th king - is alive today and is not far away from coming to power.

    7th king - the little horn, King of the Roman empire - in end times, the EU
    8th king - the beast, King of the Roman empire - in end times, the EU
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    7th king - the little horn, King of the Roman empire - in end times, the EU
    (prince who shall come, a transitional role)
    sandwiched in between - the Antichrist, King of Israel, for a short time
    (the revealed man of sin, a transitional role)
    8th king - the beast, King of the Roman empire - in end times, the EU
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  20. helmut

    helmut Member

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    Yes, and he four kingdoms are the ones that precede His first coming, identified by Daniel with the second coming (as usually in the OT).

    No. Please read the chapter carefully: In Daniel 7:9-12, Daniel is (as a vision, of course) in heaven before the throne of God. So the Son of Man approaching with the clouds of heaven is coming from earth to heaven. This is the ascension of Jesus as told in Acts 1:9. As to his departure from there back to earth, Daniel says nothing, we know about this from other Biblical passages.
     
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