Billy Graham. Memory Eternal

[tapi]

According to the Official Traditional Orthodox Facebook group one is not allowed to say "memory eternal" to the non-Orthodox departed.

Kata ekonomia you can say "RIP". Please change your conduct accordingly.

 

[~Anastasia~]

According to the Official Traditional Orthodox Facebook group one is not allowed to say "memory eternal" to the non-Orthodox departed.

Kata ekonomia you can say "RIP". Please change your conduct accordingly.

I cannot find such a group on my FB (and here I thought someone had added me to all of them by now ) ... but I cannot find it on FB at all. Unless it is one of the "secret" groups?

(Not to mention the title "Official Traditional" always sets off warning bells to me. For that reason I actually thought at first that you were joking?)

I wished to know by whose authority? I want to know the proper thing to do, but in searching what information I can find, I only find that the Church in a service cannot sing Memory Eternal for heterodox departed (though under particular circumstances the Trisagion may be sung, in cases of need and outside of the Church building).

More information is needed please.

 

[tapi]

I cannot find such a group on my FB (and here I thought someone had added me to all of them by now ) ... but I cannot find it on FB at all. Unless it is one of the "secret" groups?

(Not to mention the title "Official Traditional" always sets off warning bells to me. For that reason I actually thought at first that you were joking?)

I wished to know by whose authority? I want to know the proper thing to do, but in searching what information I can find, I only find that the Church in a service cannot sing Memory Eternal for heterodox departed (though under particular circumstances the Trisagion may be sung, in cases of need and outside of the Church building).

More information is needed please.

Sarcasm was very much involved.

But the group is very much real and sadly, so is this piece of "advice". For more information look up Traditional Orthodox (Canonical) on Facebook.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Sarcasm was very much involved.

But the group is very much real and sadly, so is this piece of "advice". For more information look up Traditional Orthodox (Canonical) on Facebook.

Ok, thankful to know you were being sarcastic. It didn't SOUND like you to say such a thing.

I'm familiar with that particular group. I'm probably in it. Not that I spend any time reading there.

I tend to check out "advice" I hear that sounds like that.

Forgive me for being so gullible.

 

[Hermit76]

I’m not taking a “shot” at you, so forgive me. I am rather observing that many of our cradle Orthodox leaders not only eulogised him at his death but valued him greatly in life. They knew him personally (and his simple, insufficient theology) and considered him and his ministry a blessing to the Orthodox Church.

You have chosen to disparage him at his death and seemingly inculpate him for your previous shortcomings, calling Graham “a person who represents my past sin”.

The same Billy Graham elicits two diametrically different reactions from you versus our hierarchs, which is interesting. The difference seems to be you and your former church experience, not Graham.

I honestly don't think I have disparaged him at all. The definition of disparage is "regard or represent as being of little worth". I really don't think I have done this with any human being on this board. My position has been and continues to be that his vocation was not a friend of Orthodoxy and thus global Christianity. I am glad that people found him friendly and he did seem to grow away from some of the more disturbing positions later in life. I am on good relations with several protestant ministers and I count them as dearest friends. However, their ministries are no friend to Orthodoxy and Catholicism. This is not disparaging them as individuals and I would mourn their death. These two issues, though not isolated from each other, are independent of one another. This is how I take the bishops' endearment of Graham. Surely they do not think that his crusades benefited Orthodoxy.
The second issue I think is driving these hard feelings is probably cultural. Everyone is acting like I committing a sin by not being nice on the day of his death. I really don't see the difference between having this discussion now and in a month. If I am crossing some Canonical boundary please let me know.
Last, please stop trying to shame me over my past sins. I mentioned that I repented of them. They are no longer the cause of my actions and should not be held against me in a heated discussion. I use them only as an example of the legitimacy of my concerns.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Lord have mercy.

Folks ... I am reminded that it is the Great Fast. We always talk on these boards about how things get "stirred up" around us. Whatever is in us tends to rise to the surface. It can be a difficult time spiritually. It's meant to be.

There are lots of nuances coming out. I'm no one's spiritual father (far from it! Lol) and won't presume to comment on anything. I would only say that whatever emotions or conflicts that might arise, can tell us something, with the guidance of our spiritual fathers, priests, etc. and anything that troubles us - especially at the start of Lent - is probably a good thing to bring up to them.

I'm not criticizing anyone, my dear brothers and sisters. Not my place and believe me, im being hit hard with "stuff" I didn't expect, from different directions at once.

I'm just wishing to remind us all of WHEN it is (myself included) and suggesting we do this.

Frankly on my part I'm glad. I have been (and still am) prevented from following the letter of Orthodox fasting, and desperately sought my priest's advice last week because I didn't want to miss out on the benefits yet again. I've tried to follow what he suggested as my own struggle, and I'm actually quite pleased to see that it "works" since I am having things come up in myself and outward attacks as well. So Glory to God!

But I need to talk to my SF, and I need to go to Confession. Lord have mercy on us all.

And may this Lenten season be a blessing to us all!

 

[ArmyMatt]

According to the Official Traditional Orthodox Facebook group one is not allowed to say "memory eternal" to the non-Orthodox departed.

Kata ekonomia you can say "RIP". Please change your conduct accordingly.

that's not technically true. I have gotten memory eternal for my non-Orthodox relatives and friends.

 

[FenderTL5]

Lord Have Mercy, may he rest in peace, pardon all his transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, whether in word, or deed, or thought. Shelter him in a place of brightness, a place of verdure, a place of repose, whence all sickness, sorrow and sighing have fled away.. Lord Have Mercy

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

The Rev. Graham regularly visited the Soviet Union from 1982 to 1992, and often preached in former USSR nations after its fall, as well as in other Orthodox countries, often forging friendly relationships with the local hierarchy. He was known for not undermining, but supporting local Church traditions wherever he went, which sometimes drew criticism from other Evangelicals.

He first visited the USSR at the personal invitation of Patriarch Pimen and spoke at Theophany Cathedral and the Central Baptist Church as part of the international conference “Religious Leaders for Saving the Sacred Gift of Life from Nuclear Catastrophe,” reports Pravmir.

Photo: Society for Orthodox Christian History in the Americas

In 1984, he preached more than 50 times in Orthodox and Evangelical churches in Leningrad, Moscow, Tallinn, and Novosibirsk over the course of a 12-day trip. He returned to the Soviet Union four years later as an honorary guest of the Russian Orthodox Church for the millennial celebration of the Baptism of Rus’.

In 1991, he spoke to 5,000 ministers of churches from the republics of the former USSR in Moscow at the School of Evangelism.

Metropolitan Hilarion (Alfeyev), the Chairman of the Russian Church’s Department for External Church Relations, visited Billy Graham at his home in 2014 to greet him on his 96th birthday. Billy’s son Franklin met with Met. Hilarion and His Holiness Patriarch Kirill the following year in Moscow to discuss the phenomenon of declining moral values. Pat. Kirill warmly recalled to Franklin Graham about having met his father in the past.
World-renowned evangelist Rev. Billy Graham dies at 99 / OrthoChristian.Com

 

[Hermit76]

The Rev. Graham regularly visited the Soviet Union from 1982 to 1992, and often preached in former USSR nations after its fall, as well as in other Orthodox countries, often forging friendly relationships with the local hierarchy. He was known for not undermining, but supporting local Church traditions wherever he went, which sometimes drew criticism from other Evangelicals.

He first visited the USSR at the personal invitation of Patriarch Pimen and spoke at Theophany Cathedral and the Central Baptist Church as part of the international conference “Religious Leaders for Saving the Sacred Gift of Life from Nuclear Catastrophe,” reports Pravmir.

Photo: Society for Orthodox Christian History in the Americas

In 1984, he preached more than 50 times in Orthodox and Evangelical churches in Leningrad, Moscow, Tallinn, and Novosibirsk over the course of a 12-day trip. He returned to the Soviet Union four years later as an honorary guest of the Russian Orthodox Church for the millennial celebration of the Baptism of Rus’.

In 1991, he spoke to 5,000 ministers of churches from the republics of the former USSR in Moscow at the School of Evangelism.

Metropolitan Hilarion (Alfeyev), the Chairman of the Russian Church’s Department for External Church Relations, visited Billy Graham at his home in 2014 to greet him on his 96th birthday. Billy’s son Franklin met with Met. Hilarion and His Holiness Patriarch Kirill the following year in Moscow to discuss the phenomenon of declining moral values. Pat. Kirill warmly recalled to Franklin Graham about having met his father in the past.
World-renowned evangelist Rev. Billy Graham dies at 99 / OrthoChristian.Com

He also lobbied for Nixon to bomb the dikes that kept a large part of North Vietnam from flooding. This would have sent millions to their death. Bill Moyer, a Johnson aide, described Graham's eyes as "lighting up" any time bombing was mentioned. It was this hatred of communism that first caught the attention of William Randolph Hearst in Los Angeles. The media mogul pushed Graham in the headlines. Of course he was supportive of the Orthodox Church in the USSR. It was the antithesis of communism. I am not saying this is a bad or good thing, it is just fact. Graham was not a purist supporter of Orthodoxy and Catholicism. Graham envisioned these churches embracing and moving toward sola scriptura. Perhaps I really am missing something but I just don't see the father of crusades, the altar call, and the sinner's prayer as really being that close to Orthodoxy and Catholicism. I know I am disagreeing with Bishops, priests, and popes, but so be it.
I know you would like for me to just stop and move on, and it is time for that. However, disagreements will come and I happen to be strong in my convictions that this is not the path to Christian unity. We may get there, but it will not come through the American-Evangelical-Military-Crusade path.

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

He also lobbied for Nixon to bomb the dikes that kept a large part of North Vietnam from flooding. This would have sent millions to their death. Bill Moyer, a Johnson aide, described Graham's eyes as "lighting up" any time bombing was mentioned. It was this hatred of communism that first caught the attention of William Randolph Hearst in Los Angeles. The media mogul pushed Graham in the headlines. Of course he was supportive of the Orthodox Church in the USSR. It was the antithesis of communism. I am not saying this is a bad or good thing, it is just fact. Graham was not a purist supporter of Orthodoxy and Catholicism. Graham envisioned these churches embracing and moving toward sola scriptura. Perhaps I really am missing something but I just don't see the father of crusades, the altar call, and the sinner's prayer as really being that close to Orthodoxy and Catholicism. I know I am disagreeing with Bishops, priests, and popes, but so be it.
I know you would like for me to just stop and move on, and it is time for that. However, disagreements will come and I happen to be strong in my convictions that this is not the path to Christian unity. We may get there, but it will not come through the American-Evangelical-Military-Crusade path.

It sounds like you are trying to derail this thread. You should start another one. This one was not intended to talk about you but rather eulogies of Billy Graham.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I hope I'm not stoking a fire, but I will agree with you, @Hermit76 , that such things as altar calls and the sinners prayer (with assurance of salvation signed, sealed, and delivered at that moment, go on and live your life now) is NOT friendly to Orthodoxy.

I myself have had a process of salvation, and never knew how to supply that "date" when asked by a Protestant. I was awakened to Jesus at the age of 4, and actively sought Him alone as a child, going so far as to knock on pastor's office doors at churches to ask my questions while in elementary school. At the age of 12, I went forward for an altar call, was led in the "sinner's prayer" and baptized. I was essentially patted on the head, told my destination was now heaven, and it was all done, and basically sent on my way. That wasn't great preparation for coming into my teen years and just as my family was torn in three directions. But I experienced and knew that I had "walked in the light". When I had another "conversion" experience as an adult - one I have thankfully never turned away from - I was bitter for a while at my beloved former pastor who I sometimes thought might have destined me for hell through his assurances, if I had died at certain points after that. Thankfully, God is merciful and knows all these things, and kept me and brought me ever closer to Him and finally into the Orthodox Church. I had to get over my bitterness at my former pastor though, and now I can look upon everyone who I might recognize errors in yet appreciate that they follow God to the best of their ability and the light they have. Just as others might look at me, seeing my errors, and hopefully think the same thing.

I'm not saying we shouldn't call errors out. After some of the theology that in various ways makes God a monster and tyrant, and that which encourages bitterness and pride, I think the whole "faith in faith and do what you want with a promise" theology is the most dangerous (after those others). I don't really know the span of Billy Graham's career, so I'm not commenting on him. Ironically, maybe, the time I listened to and read him, I was staunchly Baptist evangelical, and opposed his tendencies as being perhaps too Catholic-influenced.

But ... well. I wanted to offer you support that I agree that this kind of doctrine you mention has the potential to be disastrous to souls (except hopefully God knows and keeps and leads them all, as He did me - which has every indication of being true, since there's no reason I should be special). But yes, the teaching has great error.

But when I wish for Billy Graham to enter eternal rest, I'm NOT advocating for that theology. So I hope you don't see it as argument against you. It's not. It's only a focused view of one man who loved God and who has entered into judgement, and I pray his heart is good before God and that God receives him with mercy. I would hope I could pray that for anyone. I've certainly been shown MUCH mercy that I never deserved. So I should wish the same for everyone. We all need it.

God be with you, my dear brother.

Graham was not a purist supporter of Orthodoxy and Catholicism. Graham envisioned these churches embracing and moving toward sola scriptura. Perhaps I really am missing something but I just don't see the father of crusades, the altar call, and the sinner's prayer as really being that close to Orthodoxy and Catholicism. I know I am disagreeing with Bishops, priests, and popes, but so be it.
I know you would like for me to just stop and move on, and it is time for that. However, disagreements will come and I happen to be strong in my convictions that this is not the path to Christian unity. We may get there, but it will not come through the American-Evangelical-Military-Crusade path.

 

[~Anastasia~]

It sounds like you are trying to derail this thread. You should start another one. This one was not intended to talk about you but rather eulogies of Billy Graham.

And my apologies that I continued off topic for Hermit's sake. It took me a while to type that post and I hadn't seen yours.

 

[Hermit76]

I hope I'm not stoking a fire, but I will agree with you, @Hermit76 , that such things as altar calls and the sinners prayer (with assurance of salvation signed, sealed, and delivered at that moment, go on and live your life now) is NOT friendly to Orthodoxy...
...But when I wish for Billy Graham to enter eternal rest, I'm NOT advocating for that theology. So I hope you don't see it as argument against you. It's not. It's only a focused view of one man who loved God and who has entered into judgement, and I pray his heart is good before God and that God receives him with mercy. I would hope I could pray that for anyone. I've certainly been shown MUCH mercy that I never deserved. So I should wish the same for everyone. We all need it.

God be with you, my dear brother.

I hope the same thing for Billy and the countless numbers of those like him.
My argument isn't that he wasn't sincere or nice. My argument has been that his actions caused great harm to the world. Many of the things that cause our hearts to break in American Christianity can be traced back to his influence. I, like many, was confused by his friendliness to Catholics and Orthodox. However, in studying his life, and behavior, I feel like the "friend of all" narrative is not accurate and should not be celebrated. I am flawed but my influence does not reach that of Graham's. If I were to die you may wonder where I went, but my death would not be noted with fanfare. That's fine. As Fr. Hopko suggests, I am satisfied with being a regular person, part of the human race. However, if my influence was far and wide I would expect scrutiny and accountability. Maybe I should have let this go and just let it played out, but there is an awareness that Graham represents a door in which I feel we should not explore. Christian unity is important, but not at the expense of being tied to false doctrine, war mongering, fear tactics, and political maneuvering.

 

[Hermit76]

It sounds like you are trying to derail this thread. You should start another one. This one was not intended to talk about you but rather eulogies of Billy Graham.

I know I have been aggressive, but I take exception at your repeated attempts to make this a personal issue. Before you deny, "This one was not intended to talk about you..." was most definitely a personal low blow. I probably should have used more tact and restraint, but I don't believe I have taken this route in all of this. If you would have stayed away from these passive aggressive shots, I would have probably left it alone a long time ago.

Forgive me for not being Orthodox enough by defending myself. I do fight the redneck tendencies very hard. Often they just get the best of me.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I hope the same thing for Billy and the countless numbers of those like him.
My argument isn't that he wasn't sincere or nice. My argument has been that his actions caused great harm to the world. Many of the things that cause our hearts to break in American Christianity can be traced back to his influence. I, like many, was confused by his friendliness to Catholics and Orthodox. However, in studying his life, and behavior, I feel like the "friend of all" narrative is not accurate and should not be celebrated. I am flawed but my influence does not reach that of Graham's. If I were to die you may wonder where I went, but my death would not be noted with fanfare. That's fine. As Fr. Hopko suggests, I am satisfied with being a regular person, part of the human race. However, if my influence was far and wide I would expect scrutiny and accountability. Maybe I should have let this go and just let it played out, but there is an awareness that Graham represents a door in which I feel we should not explore. Christian unity is important, but not at the expense of being tied to false doctrine, war mongering, fear tactics, and political maneuvering.

It really does belong in another thread - but my point is that wishing the man mercy before God doesn't mean that we desire to unite ourselves with whatever all he may or may not have represented.

Due to the OP's request, we must not speak of it further here. But if you need to discuss it further, you may do so in another thread. I don't want to shut down your voice, but it is the OP's right to have his thread respected.

God be with you.

 

[Lukaris]

Memory eternal.

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

It really does belong in another thread - but my point is that wishing the man mercy before God doesn't mean that we desire to unite ourselves with whatever all he may or may not have represented.

Due to the OP's request, we must not speak of it further here. But if you need to discuss it further, you may do so in another thread. I don't want to shut down your voice, but it is the OP's right to have his thread respected.

God be with you.

Orthodox hierarchs in Eastern countries understood very well what Graham’s message represented and what his theology was. They knew that he was not Orthodox and they didn’t want to unite to his Baptist Church. But they also knew that his basic Christian message could benefit the Orthodox Church. Graham showed sufficient sensitivity to not contradict Orthodox teaching that he was invited back countless times to evangelise and even teach Orthodox priests how to evangelise. Millions of cradle, yet non practising Orthodox Christians in Eastern Europe heard his message, at the behest of our Orthodox hierarchs. Some, perhaps many, may have returned to the Orthodox Church because of him.

Thus, we can disagree with his Protestantism like we disagree with all heterodox, but to say that Graham was not a blessing to Orthodoxy is to seriously inveigh against the judgement of many Eastern Orthodox hierarchs who welcomed him and personally loved him. Out of respect for our hierarchs we can at least honour Graham at his death and, as you say, wish him mercy before God.

 

[ZaidaBoBaida]

I have been impressed by the hatred and vitriol expressed against him by people on the left - especially the homofascists.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Bill Moyers is a left wing shmuck. I take his accounts with a VERY small grain of salt!!

He also lobbied for Nixon to bomb the dikes that kept a large part of North Vietnam from flooding. This would have sent millions to their death. Bill Moyer, a Johnson aide, described Graham's eyes as "lighting up" any time bombing was mentioned. It was this hatred of communism that first caught the attention of William Randolph Hearst in Los Angeles. The media mogul pushed Graham in the headlines. Of course he was supportive of the Orthodox Church in the USSR. It was the antithesis of communism. I am not saying this is a bad or good thing, it is just fact. Graham was not a purist supporter of Orthodoxy and Catholicism. Graham envisioned these churches embracing and moving toward sola scriptura. Perhaps I really am missing something but I just don't see the father of crusades, the altar call, and the sinner's prayer as really being that close to Orthodoxy and Catholicism. I know I am disagreeing with Bishops, priests, and popes, but so be it.
I know you would like for me to just stop and move on, and it is time for that. However, disagreements will come and I happen to be strong in my convictions that this is not the path to Christian unity. We may get there, but it will not come through the American-Evangelical-Military-Crusade path.