Billy Graham. Memory Eternal

[gurneyhalleck1]

It’s a prayer thread for a well-respected dead man, not a thread for massive proofs of his errors. Why can’t we see this? Don’t like him? Don’t pray for him. Like him? Wish him well. Done.

TAW has a history of nice prayer threads. And it is a bit of a tradition in here not to enter a prayer thread and bash the dead or analyze their errors and weaknesses.

My response - and I have tried to make it respectable because Mr. Graham was respectable - comes from the numerous posts I have seen that appear to make him to be almost the Second Coming. I find it troubling that Americans in general have such a casual attitude towards truth.

There are many fine people who are Evangelical and who hold to heterodox beliefs. It is always a challenge to engage with them and try to find a charitable way to say "I'm sorry, but that is wrong." No one likes to be told they are wrong, and in America especially, the Protestant individualism which undergirds the thinking of this country makes such a pronouncement especially difficult.

But the real question - I suppose - is this: does error have consequences? The Early Fathers certainly thought so. And judging from much of what I see in this country in our behavior towards the poor, the hungry, and the naked - whom we are told to personally take care of but have pawned off on the government - I would say error does indeed have consequences. Why strive to fulfill Matthew 25: 31-43 when you are already assured of heaven because of your "decision for Jesus?" If there are poor, let my taxes take care of them.

One wonders, on the Judgment Day, how many who embraced the message of Evangelicalism, are going to be either shocked with surprise, or angry they were misled and lost out on rewards in heaven because they thought their "decision for Jesus" covered everything for them.

And remember - I say this coming from 25 years in an Evangelical background. I heard all the preaching, watched close up what it produced, and in that sense, I do have a dog in this fight.

 

[Glaucus]

Where did I claim to judge a dead man’s theology in the gun thread? It was not a theological or salvation-related thread, right? And how can a political issue like firearms in America not be political?

Your use of words like “rant” dont sound too loving to me. I criticized gun grabbing, you’re bashing a dead man ina PRAYER THREAD. You’re not saying this in love.

I don't think speaking about the errors of the things Mr. Graham believed and taught is bashing him anymore than discussing the errors of Islam is bashing Muslims or discussing the sin of homosexuality is bashing homosexuals. Sometimes, it seems, we pick and choose what constitutes people bashing based on our pet issues and topics.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

IT.... IS....A.....PRAYER....THREAD

I don't think speaking about the errors of the things Mr. Graham believed and taught is bashing him anymore than discussing the errors of Islam is bashing Muslims or discussing the sin of homosexuality is bashing homosexuals. Sometimes, it seems, we pick and choose what constitutes people bashing based on our pet issues and topics.

 

[Glaucus]

IT.... IS....A.....PRAYER....THREAD

It's just Adam's and Steve's marriage thread. Wish them a long, loving, happy and fulfilling marriage!

You see, this can go round and round. Mr. Graham has and continues to receive our prayers. I believe he is in the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is not above reproach, however.

 

[SaNcTaMaRiA]

This is where I respectfully bow out. This isn't my turf to be sowing any kind of decent.

Lord have mercy on Mr. Graham.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I don't want to play referee. But if a thread is begun as a prayer thread or with any other topic ... CF rules say that off-topic posts are not really supposed to take place. We rarely enforce that rule in TAW for general topics. But perhaps it would be best to start a thread in St. Justin Martyr's to discuss Billy Graham's theology, and keep this on on topic as it was begun. I can request it be split, but if I do I'll probably have to temporarily close it. And a mod could decide just to delete all the off-topic posts - that wouldn't be my call.

But for the sake of peace in TAW, please let's do this. If the OP requests, we would have to do something about all the off-topic posts anyway.

Please don't take this as me taking sides. Let's just try to keep peace. TAW really does have a tendency to blow up a bit during Great Lent, and we all know why. But I fear visitors could get a very bad and wrong impression.

God have mercy on us all.

(And I wonder sometimes why we don't have a forgiveness service AFTER a major fasting period lol.)

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Adam and Steve? How is this a gay thread? Glaucus, you’ve lost me.

Nothing should go round and round. Nothing. It’s a prayer thread. You either pray and throw out some love or stay silent.

I think you and I aren’t good for each other right now this Lent. Pray for me. I’m staying out of TAW. I’m frankly just tired of it and the endless threads by newbies wanting to debate minutia. It’s Lent. I don’t need this stuff. God bless you.

It's just Adam's and Steve's marriage thread. Wish them a long, loving, happy and fulfilling marriage!

You see, this can go round and round. Mr. Graham has and continues to receive our prayers. I believe he is in the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is not above reproach, however.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think my only thing is that this is not really the time to delve into Billy Graham's errors. while it is not wrong to say he had them (because he did), since the man just died I think it would be best especially here just to pray for him. it's what we did on here when bin Laden was killed.

and again, I don't think anyone is judging Graham's soul and I do think this is something to discuss on here (because evangelical stuff is everywhere), just not right now.

 

[Glaucus]

It's just Adam's and Steve's marriage thread. Wish them a long, loving, happy and fulfilling marriage!

You see, this can go round and round. Mr. Graham has and continues to receive our prayers. I believe he is in the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is not above reproach, however.

It goes back to this reply:

I don't think speaking about the errors of the things Mr. Graham believed and taught is bashing him anymore than discussing the errors of Islam is bashing Muslims or discussing the sin of homosexuality is bashing homosexuals. Sometimes, it seems, we pick and choose what constitutes people bashing based on our pet issues and topics.

Just because a thread is one thing, that doesn't mean we must automatically ignore the error. You see, if it was a gay marriage thread, you presumably wouldn't stand idly by and ignore the error.

I think my only thing is that this is not really the time to delve into Billy Graham's errors. while it is not wrong to say he had them (because he did), since the man just died I think it would be best especially here just to pray for him. it's what we did on here when bin Laden was killed.

and again, I don't think anyone is judging Graham's soul and I do think this is something to discuss on here (because evangelical stuff is everywhere), just not right now.

You may be right. Best to leave this alone now. Too much passion and confusion going on.

 

[Light of the East]

I agree. My comments here are done. May God have mercy on Mr. Graham. I apologize for any offenses given.

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

I don't want to play referee. But if a thread is begun as a prayer thread or with any other topic ... CF rules say that off-topic posts are not really supposed to take place. We rarely enforce that rule in TAW for general topics. But perhaps it would be best to start a thread in St. Justin Martyr's to discuss Billy Graham's theology, and keep this on on topic as it was begun. I can request it be split, but if I do I'll probably have to temporarily close it. And a mod could decide just to delete all the off-topic posts - that wouldn't be my call.

But for the sake of peace in TAW, please let's do this. If the OP requests, we would have to do something about all the off-topic posts anyway.

Please don't take this as me taking sides. Let's just try to keep peace. TAW really does have a tendency to blow up a bit during Great Lent, and we all know why. But I fear visitors could get a very bad and wrong impression.

God have mercy on us all.

(And I wonder sometimes why we don't have a forgiveness service AFTER a major fasting period lol.)

Well, as Gurney and Matt did say, this thread was really intended as a prayer thread and to honour Graham. More than just pray for him, we can praise God for him, as Sister Vassa did this week in her podcast, we can respect him for his Godly character, as Gurney does above, and we can marvel at his Christian witness, as does the Ancient Faith Podcast I posted.

The George Wills of the world and here can write all the condescending diatribes they want. But Will and others are setting the bar pretty high if they expect perfection, for not even our Orthodox saints were perfect (and some even said some controversial things about Jews).

For those that disagree with Graham’s theology, yes, go ahead and start another thread. I personally find that subject rather banal and anodyne. There is much to disagree with Graham because-surprise, surprise-he wasn’t Orthodox.

But there is also much to celebrate in Graham’s life. And herein lies perhaps the most interesting thing about Graham’s death and this thread. Many mature, cradle Orthodox leaders—Metr Hilarion Alfeyev, Sister Vassa and others—found much to celebrate in Graham’s life. By contrast, many converts to Orthodoxy here, some of whom have been Orthodox for relatively short periods of time and come from Evangelical backgrounds, have chosen to excoriate Graham at his death.

I’ll go with the example of our hierarchs. They don’t need me to point out Graham’s flaws.