Billy Graham. Memory Eternal

[Hermit76]

Bill Moyers is a left wing shmuck. I take his accounts with a VERY small grain of salt!!

So... I guess this name-calling will be ok with the OP and everyone else.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Y'all please behave.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I wonder if speaking ill of the dead based on the account of a liberal media hack is good with the OP?

So... I guess this name-calling will be ok with the OP and everyone else.

 

[Hermit76]

I wonder if speaking ill of the dead based on the account of a liberal media hack is good with the OP?

Obviously you haven't read our back and forth... If you don't like Moyer, read the transcripts of Graham's discussions with Nixon about the Jews. He describes how he treats them nice but privately holds critical views of them. Lol, Nixon told him to not to tell them(Jews) how he really felt. Or you could read the accounts of Graham's secret meeting in Switzerland to direct evangelical leaders to act to keep a Catholic (JFK) out of the White House. Again, he seemed to turn away from this later, but facts are facts...

 

[Glaucus]

My thoughts from another thread.

It's the Once Saved, Always Saved garbage that comes with it. We are striving towards salvation; we aren't saved as it is. The "Sinners Prayer" and OSAS allows a person to be lazy in their faith, and it allows a person to believe that they can do whatever it is that they want to do because they're "saved" regardless. So yes, Graham's teachings and beliefs were very, very suspect and largely incorrect, but there is no doubt that he is a great man of God, and he helped many. How culpable he is for what he believed and taught is up to God alone. We can appreciate the man without praising his beliefs.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Requiscat in pace.

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

My thoughts from another thread.

I think this is an equanimitous post, so kudos. I would just quibble with your characterisation of Graham’s message as simplistic Once Saved Always Saved “garbage”, which obviously would not have been acceptable to his Orthodox hosts in places like Russia. He suggests, instead:

“... we can never be good enough, for God’s standard is perfection. Our salvation depends solely on Christ, Who died to take away all our sins.

Does this mean it doesn’t matter how we live? Absolutely not! If we live sinful lives, it may well mean that we haven’t given ourselves to Christ after all, and we’ve even deceived ourselves into thinking we are saved when we really aren’t. The Bible warns, “As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead” (James 2:26).”Once a person decides to follow Jesus, can they lose their salvation later on if they commit a major sin?

I am not suggesting that Graham’s soteriology was Orthodox, but it is incorrect to suggest that he viewed one could be lazy in one’s faith and do whatever he wants and still consider himself “saved”.

Other than that, I think your post is spot on.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’m just not comfortable ripping on the recently deceased. Mr. Graham was a unifying, faithful, hopeful force for good. With all the abortion, LGBT filth, violence, sin, and rampant atheism, is it too much to just say “rest in peace” or nothing at all rather than bash a good man’s reputation in death?

Ugh....

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

I’m just not comfortable ripping on the recently deceased. Mr. Graham was a unifying, faithful, hopeful force for good. With all the abortion, LGBT filth, violence, sin, and rampant atheism, is it too much to just say “rest in peace” or nothing at all rather than bash a good man’s reputation in death?

Ugh....

Not to stirr the water in your haven but i too feel like you do, a RIP or plain silence is preferable to bashing someone whos still warm.

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

A propos this thread, Ancient Faith Radio has a 20 minute podcast about what we Orthodox can learn from Billy Graham. Really good, practical stuff. 6 Things Orthodox Christians Can Learn From Billy Graham - Ancient Faith Presents... | Ancient Faith Ministries

 

[Light of the East]

I wonder if speaking ill of the dead based on the account of a liberal media hack is good with the OP?

How about a conservative Catholic taking Graham to task:

'Conservative' writer George Will smears Billy Graham

And my Facebook response:


QUOTE: “His audiences were exhorted to make a ‘decision’ for Christ, but a moment of volition might be (in theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s phrase) an exercise in ‘cheap grace.’ Graham’s preaching, to large rallies and broadcast audiences, gave comfort to many people and probably improved some,” Will wrote.

The Evangelical idea of "making a decision for Jesus" and then believing that you are just "A-Okay" is indeed just that - cheap grace. We can see just how cheap that grace is by looking at the practices of Western Evangelicalism and Roman Catholicism during the Lenten season.

The traditional view of salvation is not a "once and done" deal with Jesus which leaves the sinner free of any and all responsibility. Holy Orthodox has always and continues to see our salvation as a life-long journey which entails what St. Paul called a race and a struggle. Hence, at this time in the year, the Holy Orthodox church practices the fasting which it has always done for the last 2000 years, while Evangelicals wonder what all the fuss is about over Lent and Roman Catholic MAY - I say may - "give something up" for Lent.

Which is the greater struggle to achieve holiness? Which entails more self-sacrifice and violence done to the passions of our bodies? Certainly not the false idea posited by Graham that you just "make a decision for Jesus" and you are "as ready for heaven as if you were already there."

I never met Mr. Graham and make no judgment on him as a person nor of his relationship to Christ. That is between he and Christ now. But I will not in any way, shape, or form describe what he preached as either historic Christianity nor will I say that it is anything other than heretical teaching which was not found in the writings of the Apostles and Early Fathers of the Church.

May God in His mercy grant to Billy Graham forgiveness and grace.

Postscript: I do hope that you believe it is possible to not agree with the message one gives while not attacking the messenger personally. If we cannot say "he was a good man, but he was in error," then our fight for evangelism of the lost is all but lost.

 

[Glaucus]

How about a conservative Catholic taking Graham to task:

'Conservative' writer George Will smears Billy Graham

And my Facebook response:


QUOTE: “His audiences were exhorted to make a ‘decision’ for Christ, but a moment of volition might be (in theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s phrase) an exercise in ‘cheap grace.’ Graham’s preaching, to large rallies and broadcast audiences, gave comfort to many people and probably improved some,” Will wrote.

The Evangelical idea of "making a decision for Jesus" and then believing that you are just "A-Okay" is indeed just that - cheap grace. We can see just how cheap that grace is by looking at the practices of Western Evangelicalism and Roman Catholicism during the Lenten season.

The traditional view of salvation is not a "once and done" deal with Jesus which leaves the sinner free of any and all responsibility. Holy Orthodox has always and continues to see our salvation as a life-long journey which entails what St. Paul called a race and a struggle. Hence, at this time in the year, the Holy Orthodox church practices the fasting which it has always done for the last 2000 years, while Evangelicals wonder what all the fuss is about over Lent and Roman Catholic MAY - I say may - "give something up" for Lent.

Which is the greater struggle to achieve holiness? Which entails more self-sacrifice and violence done to the passions of our bodies? Certainly not the false idea posited by Graham that you just "make a decision for Jesus" and you are "as ready for heaven as if you were already there."

I never met Mr. Graham and make no judgment on him as a person nor of his relationship to Christ. That is between he and Christ now. But I will not in any way, shape, or form describe what he preached as either historic Christianity nor will I say that it is anything other than heretical teaching which was not found in the writings of the Apostles and Early Fathers of the Church.

May God in His mercy grant to Billy Graham forgiveness and grace.

Postscript: I do hope that you believe it is possible to not agree with the message one gives while not attacking the messenger personally. If we cannot say "he was a good man, but he was in error," then our fight for evangelism of the lost is all but lost.

Almost exactly my thoughts from above, just much longer.

 

[SaNcTaMaRiA]

How about a conservative Catholic taking Graham to task:

'Conservative' writer George Will smears Billy Graham

And my Facebook response:


QUOTE: “His audiences were exhorted to make a ‘decision’ for Christ, but a moment of volition might be (in theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s phrase) an exercise in ‘cheap grace.’ Graham’s preaching, to large rallies and broadcast audiences, gave comfort to many people and probably improved some,” Will wrote.

The Evangelical idea of "making a decision for Jesus" and then believing that you are just "A-Okay" is indeed just that - cheap grace. We can see just how cheap that grace is by looking at the practices of Western Evangelicalism and Roman Catholicism during the Lenten season.

The traditional view of salvation is not a "once and done" deal with Jesus which leaves the sinner free of any and all responsibility. Holy Orthodox has always and continues to see our salvation as a life-long journey which entails what St. Paul called a race and a struggle. Hence, at this time in the year, the Holy Orthodox church practices the fasting which it has always done for the last 2000 years, while Evangelicals wonder what all the fuss is about over Lent and Roman Catholic MAY - I say may - "give something up" for Lent.

Which is the greater struggle to achieve holiness? Which entails more self-sacrifice and violence done to the passions of our bodies? Certainly not the false idea posited by Graham that you just "make a decision for Jesus" and you are "as ready for heaven as if you were already there."

I never met Mr. Graham and make no judgment on him as a person nor of his relationship to Christ. That is between he and Christ now. But I will not in any way, shape, or form describe what he preached as either historic Christianity nor will I say that it is anything other than heretical teaching which was not found in the writings of the Apostles and Early Fathers of the Church.

May God in His mercy grant to Billy Graham forgiveness and grace.

Postscript: I do hope that you believe it is possible to not agree with the message one gives while not attacking the messenger personally. If we cannot say "he was a good man, but he was in error," then our fight for evangelism of the lost is all but lost.

I can't refute this. I was once a once saved always saved person. I prayed my sinners prayer. College and studying theology and my religion degree changed my mind. Billy loved Jesus I don't think that's refutable. He did however teach herecy.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’ve never claimed I subscribe to Graham’s evangelical beliefs. If I did, I’d be a Protestant, not Orthodox.

But in a world of LGBT perverts, atheists, abortion-minded liberals, secular humanists, apathy, violence, hatred, and total disregard for what is good, I have a real hard time calling out Mr. Graham. He spent a lifetime trying in his own way to bring souls to God. I see it as a far superior outcome for an atheist to come to Christ at a Graham revival than to remain agnostic or warring against God. I see anyone coming to love God in Protestantism instead of professing antagonism or apathy to God. It’s just not my place to rip on this guy. I don’t see any reason to criticize him when he just barely passed away. It goes against the spirit of Lent for me to think I have all the answers and that I can judge Mr. Graham. I know Graham and his son have brought a lot of people to faith in my area. Better to have some faith in Christ than be a secular humanist. And I also would caution that it is theoretically possible for a Protestant to love God more than an Orthodox Christian. There are Protestants who are far more giving, charitable, prayerful, and faithful than Orthodox. And there are Vice versa. Can I take the time to speak I’ll of this man whom most consider a legend when he’s barely in the ground? Pass....

 

[SaNcTaMaRiA]

People have been discussing Graham's theology for years and years. It didn't start and won't stop just because he is dead. I don't think anyone is questioning his salvation or his love for Christ. Which he obviously had a lot of.

 

[Glaucus]

There is never a wrong time to discuss truth, not even in death. Remember what Christ told the man who wished to bury his father before following him: "Let the dead bury their own dead." Can you imagine? Even in death Christ's truth doesn't cease.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I disagree. And at Great Lent we’re not called upon to analyze and engage in polemics and theological critiques of recently deceased well-respected religious leaders. Our father among the saints tells us to assume the saintliness and goodness of those around us and the worst about our own state of holiness. I will follow his advice regarding Mr. Graham.

Furthermore, this thread was begun to honor Grsham and offer hopes for his salvation, not trash the guy or open up a full dossier on evangelicalism.

There is never a wrong time to discuss truth, not even in death. Remember what Christ told the man who wished to bury his father before following him: "Let the dead bury their own dead." Can you imagine? Even in death Christ's truth doesn't cease.

 

[Hermit76]

I disagree. And at Great Lent we’re not called upon to analyze and engage in polemics and theological critiques ...

Furthermore, this thread was begun to honor Grsham and offer hopes for his salvation, not trash the guy or open up a full dossier on evangelicalism.

Yet, you had no problem going off on a political rant during Lent on my gun thread even after I asked for no political discussion. You can't pull the Lent card here and forget it elsewhere. I say this in love

 

[Light of the East]

I disagree. And at Great Lent we’re not called upon to analyze and engage in polemics and theological critiques of recently deceased well-respected religious leaders. Our father among the saints tells us to assume the saintliness and goodness of those around us and the worst about our own state of holiness. I will follow his advice regarding Mr. Graham.

Furthermore, this thread was begun to honor Grsham and offer hopes for his salvation, not trash the guy or open up a full dossier on evangelicalism.

My response - and I have tried to make it respectable because Mr. Graham was respectable - comes from the numerous posts I have seen that appear to make him to be almost the Second Coming. I find it troubling that Americans in general have such a casual attitude towards truth.

There are many fine people who are Evangelical and who hold to heterodox beliefs. It is always a challenge to engage with them and try to find a charitable way to say "I'm sorry, but that is wrong." No one likes to be told they are wrong, and in America especially, the Protestant individualism which undergirds the thinking of this country makes such a pronouncement especially difficult.

But the real question - I suppose - is this: does error have consequences? The Early Fathers certainly thought so. And judging from much of what I see in this country in our behavior towards the poor, the hungry, and the naked - whom we are told to personally take care of but have pawned off on the government - I would say error does indeed have consequences. Why strive to fulfill Matthew 25: 31-43 when you are already assured of heaven because of your "decision for Jesus?" If there are poor, let my taxes take care of them.

One wonders, on the Judgment Day, how many who embraced the message of Evangelicalism, are going to be either shocked with surprise, or angry they were misled and lost out on rewards in heaven because they thought their "decision for Jesus" covered everything for them.

And remember - I say this coming from 25 years in an Evangelical background. I heard all the preaching, watched close up what it produced, and in that sense, I do have a dog in this fight.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Where did I claim to judge a dead man’s theology in the gun thread? It was not a theological or salvation-related thread, right? And how can a political issue like firearms in America not be political?

Your use of words like “rant” dont sound too loving to me. I criticized gun grabbing, you’re bashing a dead man ina PRAYER THREAD. You’re not saying this in love.

Yet, you had no problem going off on a political rant during Lent on my gun thread even after I asked for no political discussion. You can't pull the Lent card here and forget it elsewhere. I say this in love