Bill Johnson, Randy Clark

[ByTheSpirit]

Are these two men worthy of respect as teachers in your opinion? I find a lot of books that interest me spiritually written by them or endorsed by them and I hear a lot of bad about them, especially Randy Clark for his involvement in the Toronto Blessing. Yet I know little about them so I ask for collective wisdom here, are they reliable or no...

 

[Willie T]

Why not read their books, and make up your own mind?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Why not read their books, and make up your own mind?

Any Joe Schmo can write a book and sound like they know what they are talking about and yet completely miss the mark or even worse, intentionally deceive others... This is why I ask... Why not just answer my question since you chimed in?

 

[talitha]

I really believe both of these men are godly. Years ago I went to Randy Clark's church in St. Louis, MO, and I liked the church and his message. Very down to earth. I haven't been keeping up with his ministry lately. I love listening to Bill Johnson's messages on YouTube. However, I do not enjoy his books. They always seem like they'd be interesting, but I have yet to make it all the way through one. I think he's just not a great writer; it's not a spiritual thing. I would recommend books by other people who are also out of Bethel: Kris Valloten, Danny Silk, Andy and Janine Mason (probably others whose books I haven't read).....
blessings
tal

 

[Messy]

I really believe both of these men are godly. Years ago I went to Randy Clark's church in St. Louis, MO, and I liked the church and his message. Very down to earth. I haven't been keeping up with his ministry lately. I love listening to Bill Johnson's messages on YouTube.

Me too, I don't know Bill Johnson, but what I heard on Youtube was great and I loved Randy Clark's book.

 

[Frogster]

Johnson and Clarke visit 2 churches near me, and they are "submitted" to them or him, or whatever.

Personally I would not submit to somone who teaches a doctrine, that seeks people submit to them. He is also into the glory dust, overdone angel fellowship, maybe theophostic prayer etc, as the churches near me are also.

He is associated with NAR or he was, maybe is, often people change their affiliations especially if the group they were or are in receives opposition and critique. Not saying he is, but often people switch parties, so to speak.

Generally, from all I have gathered, he is NAR.

I am sure he is a nice guy, again, this is my perception from observation, and hearing teachings, and from other peoples comments. It is hard to nail things down anymore. The mainstream denoms often at least have a statement of faith, or something to hold up to the light, but these free floating groups that change, splinter, etc, so information can be fresh or maybe not.


One last thing, if he is NAR (I know he is, just trying to be open that he changed), one has to wonder about the title.

Are they apostles? And what is the reformation they seek to bring in?

And is the apostle word, and the reformation word, trying to put themselves on par with the reformers, and the Biblical apostles, all while they presume the self imposed lofty position, of those titles, reforming the little people with all of this "new" revelation. What is all this "new" revelation they bring down to us?


Wow, 3 words in one title, NAR, sure shines some light on the issue.

Welp, that is my opinion. No harm intended to the mentioned names, just responding to the OP.

Frog.

 

[Frogster]

Why not read their books, and make up your own mind?

Just like in court, if one just hears the prosecutor, one will have a biased or single slanted view opinion, but once one hears the defense, one may see things differently. Often asking others helps to get a balanced approach. If one just reads the persons book, he is just hearing one lawyer one debater. Challenging facts, can cut through a sealed insulated ideology.

 

[REPHAIAHPEDAHEL]

I have never heard of them and from what i have read here, am alright without them or their teachings.

 

[Frogster]

I have met some guys in the church, that received very very flattering prophecies, hmmmm, I would be careful of those kind of personal words, that could arouse pride, and draw followers after the one who flatters, flattery can be bait, to get young converts to want to hear more, and follow the "leader". Again, this is just my opinon, and experinces based on personal observation, people are free to be contrary, great, balance is wonderful.

Hey, this is like what i said about court, the OP can hear both sides, so he will read the book, not from a slanted perspective, received from the author.

 

[Frogster]

I have never heard of them and from what i have read here, am alright without them or their teachings.

Yeah, me personally, it is taking years to just download all of the amazing revelation from the true apsotles, personally I don't want any more "new" stuff, I got enough on my plate with just the Bible. One can study just Romans for a lifetime and still see new things, that is fine and enough for me.

 

[REPHAIAHPEDAHEL]

Very true Frogster!

 

[Frogster]

Ok, here is what can happen with a personal prophecy, especially if it is flattery. I am not saying all do this, and I believe in prophecy done in a conservative manner.

If I get a personal word, that says I am called to greatness, and maybe be told I am "going to the nations", or this or that, I could now undestandably base my life around that word. Who wouldn't want to?

Ok, now the hook is set, for me to let go of the leader or so called prophet, if I realize he is not a prophet, or his teachings are wrong, means I have to let go of the prophecy and my dream too, that which is built around the prophecy and the one who gave it.

The connection has to be there, the prophet and his prophecy go hand in hand, if one starts to disbelieve the leader, one would tend to not trust the word, given by a leader who my not be a prophet after all.

So now it is even harder to let go of the leader because I now question my goal, that which was a big one, due to the grandiose vision given to me. The bigger the flattery, the more one wants the big goal.

If I were told I am called to serve hot soup to the poor, that is easier to let go of.. Sorry, sad but true, human nature is what it is.

So now, the prophet owns the person, by way of association, because for the young convert to not be into the teacher anymore, means he as to let go of the directive prophecy, and what he was building his life around.

It would be a reflex connection, drop the prophet, drop my personal directive.

Who wouldn't now worry, if the word was from God?

I say this because the people in the OP title, are big on personal words, and again, the guy in my town, is now building his life, believing he is got this really big call!

 

[talitha]

Johnson and Clarke visit 2 churches near me, and they are "submitted" to them or him, or whatever.

Personally I would not submit to somone who teaches a doctrine, that seeks people submit to them.

I have met Randy Clarke and have listened to many Bill Johnson teachings, and I don't think this is a "doctrine" that either of them "teaches" - it's just something that happens when someone who has spiritual authority comes around; people are faced with a choice - should I come under this or not? Bill Johnson for sure has spiritual authority like that. I have not chosen to come under it, but I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I just have relationship with others in authority. Hmm, authority is an interesting topic. Maybe a thread.....

He is also into the glory dust, overdone angel fellowship, maybe theophostic prayer etc, as the churches near me are also.

"Glory dust" seems to just "happen" sometimes - there is nothing to be "into" really. No one is standing there calling up into Heaven, "Okay, bring on the glory dust!" (well, at least no one with a microphone.....). Not sure what you mean by "overdone angel fellowship" - is there some kind of quota on how much we should be fellowshipping with angels? At what point should we say, "Hey, sorry, dude, I gotta make sure I don't overdo my fellowship with you - you can stand over there in the corner and guard me while I sleep, but I can't talk or anything." As for theophostic prayer, it's just another term/format for inner healing, which I think is CRUCIAL ministry.

He is associated with NAR....

Soooo sick of NARphobia.....

I am sure he is a nice guy, again, this is my perception from observation, and hearing teachings, and from other peoples comments. It is hard to nail things down anymore. The mainstream denoms often at least have a statement of faith, or something to hold up to the light, but these free floating groups that change, splinter, etc, so information can be fresh or maybe not.

So, do you think that everyone should be in a "mainstream" denomination?

One last thing, if he is NAR (I know he is, just trying to be open that he changed), one has to wonder about the title.....

Why must everything be about NAR? Can we just talk about individual ministries and ministers without bringing this up? I doubt either of these guys sits around pondering the NAR. (NARvel gazing? )

I have met some guys in the church, that received very very flattering prophecies, hmmmm, I would be careful of those kind of personal words, that could arouse pride, and draw followers after the one who flatters, flattery can be bait, to get young converts to want to hear more, and follow the "leader".

Well, if the Lord gives me a positive word for someone, that is what I will give the person - I will not hold it and wait for something negative to balance it out. That said, I do believe we must learn TIMING with these things. Sometimes a destiny word, for instance, can be given too soon, causing a person to become prideful and fall, thus preventing or at least waylaying the destiny it foretold. But then there are times..... yeah, we need to rely upon the Lord not just to hear a word from him but also to be released to give it. And sometimes these things are either not taught or not considered.

 

[Frogster]

I have met Randy Clarke and have listened to many Bill Johnson teachings, and I don't think this is a "doctrine" that either of them "teaches" - it's just something that happens when someone who has spiritual authority comes around; people are faced with a choice - should I come under this or not? Bill Johnson for sure has spiritual authority like that. I have not chosen to come under it, but I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I just have relationship with others in authority. Hmm, authority is an interesting topic. Maybe a thread.....


"Glory dust" seems to just "happen" sometimes - there is nothing to be "into" really. No one is standing there calling up into Heaven, "Okay, bring on the glory dust!" (well, at least no one with a microphone.....). Not sure what you mean by "overdone angel fellowship" - is there some kind of quota on how much we should be fellowshipping with angels? At what point should we say, "Hey, sorry, dude, I gotta make sure I don't overdo my fellowship with you - you can stand over there in the corner and guard me while I sleep, but I can't talk or anything." As for theophostic prayer, it's just another term/format for inner healing, which I think is CRUCIAL ministry.


Soooo sick of NARphobia.....


So, do you think that everyone should be in a "mainstream" denomination?


Why must everything be about NAR? Can we just talk about individual ministries and ministers without bringing this up? I doubt either of these guys sits around pondering the NAR. (NARvel gazing? )


Well, if the Lord gives me a positive word for someone, that is what I will give the person - I will not hold it and wait for something negative to balance it out. That said, I do believe we must learn TIMING with these things. Sometimes a destiny word, for instance, can be given too soon, causing a person to become prideful and fall, thus preventing or at least waylaying the destiny it foretold. But then there are times..... yeah, we need to rely upon the Lord not just to hear a word from him but also to be released to give it. And sometimes these things are either not taught or not considered.

Naraphobia? good one! very creative.

But hey, Paul feared the false apostles, so I choose to be phobic too.

There are texts about angel worship, many do not believe in the glitter dust either.

At least mainstream denominations, our Christian brothers, have a statement of faith, to their credit. Not like splinter free floating groups, one day they can be this, one day that, nothing concrete to go on.

But what caught my eye here is the words I put in the red above.

Who says they are authority? That poves my point, "apostle" is an abused power word now, one says I am an apostle, one garners self proclaimed authority. I would be careful.

 

[talitha]

When a person carries spiritual authority, it is recognized spiritually. I have an example concerning another fairly-well-known minister whose name I will withhold here (just saying I do know him personally) is neither a pastor or an apostle; the only thing he's the leader of is his own ministry, which mainly produces teaching materials. His spiritual authority is often recognized by strangers, notably by strangers who are practitioners of witchcraft. They defer to him because of this spiritual authority. This kind of authority does not come from seminary or from serving under another man. It comes from relationship with the Lord. A close friend of mine, who is a young lady in her late twenties, has run into problems because of the spiritual authority she carries. She tries very much to honor the pastors and leaders here in Honduras, but she is often mistaken as "rebellious". What these pastors and leaders are really seeing is authority that comes from God - even when she isn't teaching or doing anything other than participating like everyone else in a meeting.

I've been noticing that the spirit operates very differently than the mind or the emotions, and it's really hard to verbalize that!!

 

[Willie T]

Ah, I'm beginning to see the wisdom of basing your decisions on what others think.

One may love the guys... others may hate them.

Yes, I can see how you are so much more wisely and accurately informed this way.

 

[Matjohluk]

Are these two men worthy of respect as teachers in your opinion? I find a lot of books that interest me spiritually written by them or endorsed by them and I hear a lot of bad about them, especially Randy Clark for his involvement in the Toronto Blessing. Yet I know little about them so I ask for collective wisdom here, are they reliable or no...

Most false teachers and prophets are charming people, and Bill Johnson is one such person. Most false teachers and prophets emphasises a number of things that most of us completely agree with, such as street evangelism, Spiritual Gifts, prophecy and healing on the streets, etc., etc. But most end there and where the real problem begins is that they endorse and promote an "anointing" exactly identical to the one that false teachers have promoted before, and the last one I remember was Todd Bentley of the Lakeland Revival that promoted all “angel of light” manifestation, such as being "drunk in the glory", fire-tunnel, laughing, jerking, gold-dust, "Angel-mania" that had did much damage to the Charismatic movement around the world and in many cases reduced it to a shocking charade and sham.

Our great men of the charismatic movement such as Keith Green and Derek Prince would grimace in pain if they were with us today, and what would they think of all that New Age movement farce and sham.

Keep away from Bill Johnson.

 

[Matjohluk]

Randy Clark, Bill Johnson and Todd Bentley all took part in the Lakeland Gold Dust farce in Florida, back in 2008, who all conducted false teachings and false revival of our Lord. The dangerous impartations and the manifestations of the demon that are and can be transferred by deceived people when other come into agreement with what is being passed on. This impartation isn’t Biblical sound or true practice of the laying on of hands. It all slam-dunk impartation of the “angel of light”.

Keep away from Randy Clark.
Todd Bentley - Randy Clack - Lakeland Florida - YouTube

 

[JavaQueen2]

we had Randy at our church a couple months ago...fantastic man of God. Preached the Word...Nothing about angels, dust and other things. TOTALLY Jesus.

 

[Frogster]

quick correction after this, i will be back later. I did not mean Paul feared the false apostles in and of themsleves, but he feared the damage they could do.