Bill Johnson, Randy Clark

[ByTheSpirit]

Ah, I'm beginning to see the wisdom of basing your decisions on what others think.

One may love the guys... others may hate them.

Yes, I can see how you are so much more wisely and accurately informed this way.

You may be bitter because I understand you are part of the Vineyard Movement of which Bill Johnson is as well if I'm not mistaken.

If you do not agree with me asking the question then why even waste your time replying. Your not going to make me suddenly regret asking a question that was and still is important to me. As it turns out most people here are against such people, which I tend to agree with. Doesn't mean the majority is always right, but it does mean there is some credence to brothers and sisters in Christ discussing matters collectively so that certain people can get a consensus on the subject.

I really could care less if you think I'm "wiser" for asking a question that needed asked. Your sarcasm and tongue-in-cheek remark do not affect me either way.

 

[Melshezidek]

Are these two men worthy of respect as teachers in your opinion? I find a lot of books that interest me spiritually written by them or endorsed by them and I hear a lot of bad about them, especially Randy Clark for his involvement in the Toronto Blessing. Yet I know little about them so I ask for collective wisdom here, are they reliable or no...

I think very highly of Bill Johnson and his work. Not so familiar with Randy Clark though.

 

[Melshezidek]

I have met some guys in the church, that received very very flattering prophecies, hmmmm, I would be careful of those kind of personal words, that could arouse pride, and draw followers after the one who flatters, flattery can be bait, to get young converts to want to hear more, and follow the "leader". Again, this is just my opinon, and experinces based on personal observation, people are free to be contrary, great, balance is wonderful.

Hey, this is like what i said about court, the OP can hear both sides, so he will read the book, not from a slanted perspective, received from the author.

And if the same gave correctional words they would be accused of being harsh. Can't win em all boys!
The fact is some words are going to sound great, and some are going to be correcting. Both sorts of words may be right or wrong. That's where discernment comes in. There has to be discernment or a person will either accept or reject everything according to their fleshly understanding

 

[hislegacy]

Why not read their books, and make up your own mind?

Best advice you could ever get. It causes you to be wise and search the scriptures - the Bereans were commended for it.

You will be also

 

[Willie T]

You may be bitter because I understand you are part of the Vineyard Movement of which Bill Johnson is as well if I'm not mistaken.

If you do not agree with me asking the question then why even waste your time replying. Your not going to make me suddenly regret asking a question that was and still is important to me. As it turns out most people here are against such people, which I tend to agree with. Doesn't mean the majority is always right, but it does mean there is some credence to brothers and sisters in Christ discussing matters collectively so that certain people can get a consensus on the subject.

I really could care less if you think I'm "wiser" for asking a question that needed asked. Your sarcasm and tongue-in-cheek remark do not affect me either way.

Nothing "tongue-in-cheek" about it. I think it is less than wise to go by someone else's opinion.

And, personally, I have never read even one book by either of these men.... they aren't members of my congregation, so I really am not too concerned with them, one way, or another.

 

[Frogster]

There is a reason people read Consumer Reports Magazine, Amazon reviews, feedbacks, restaurant reviews, movies, books, tools etc, because people want to learn, and see what others think. That's fine as far as the OP goes.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Nothing "tongue-in-cheek" about it. I think it is less than wise to go by someone else's opinion.

And, personally, I have never read even one book by either of these men.... they aren't members of my congregation, so I really am not too concerned with them, one way, or another.

Ok, my apologies for misreading the context of your post.

 

[Matjohluk]

we had Randy at our church a couple months ago...fantastic man of God. Preached the Word...Nothing about angels, dust and other things. TOTALLY Jesus.

Good may be he turned over a new leaf after 2008.

 

[Matjohluk]

You test the spirits and their fruit by Scriptures, another way is to go to YouTube and check out some of the videos, what you see is what you get.

Blessings.

 

[Frogster]

just because one omits a certain aspect of a belief system on a certain day, does not mean they don't teach it at another time.

 

[talitha]

Randy Clark is Vineyard. Not sure where Bill Johnson was trained. Neither is a wolf.

 

[Andrea411]

Johnson and Clarke visit 2 churches near me, and they are "submitted" to them or him, or whatever.

Personally I would not submit to somone who teaches a doctrine, that seeks people submit to them. He is also into the glory dust, overdone angel fellowship, maybe theophostic prayer etc, as the churches near me are also.

He is associated with NAR or he was, maybe is, often people change their affiliations especially if the group they were or are in receives opposition and critique. Not saying he is, but often people switch parties, so to speak.

Generally, from all I have gathered, he is NAR.

I am sure he is a nice guy, again, this is my perception from observation, and hearing teachings, and from other peoples comments. It is hard to nail things down anymore. The mainstream denoms often at least have a statement of faith, or something to hold up to the light, but these free floating groups that change, splinter, etc, so information can be fresh or maybe not.


One last thing, if he is NAR (I know he is, just trying to be open that he changed), one has to wonder about the title.

Are they apostles? And what is the reformation they seek to bring in?

And is the apostle word, and the reformation word, trying to put themselves on par with the reformers, and the Biblical apostles, all while they presume the self imposed lofty position, of those titles, reforming the little people with all of this "new" revelation. What is all this "new" revelation they bring down to us?


Wow, 3 words in one title, NAR, sure shines some light on the issue.

Welp, that is my opinion. No harm intended to the mentioned names, just responding to the OP.

Frog.

You have yet to approve of one Charismatic preacher or teacher…. I have asked you repeatedly and you have done nothing but tear people down.
Especially charismatic people.

 

[Melshezidek]

What is NAR?

 

[turned around]

Hi,
New apostolic reform. There seems to be different camps in this movement. Ask the Spirit for discernment.

 

[contango]

Are these two men worthy of respect as teachers in your opinion? I find a lot of books that interest me spiritually written by them or endorsed by them and I hear a lot of bad about them, especially Randy Clark for his involvement in the Toronto Blessing. Yet I know little about them so I ask for collective wisdom here, are they reliable or no...

I'm not familiar with Randy Clark but personally I'd steer clear of Bill Johnson. Truth be told I'd give him a very wide berth.

I read his book When Heaven Invades Earth some years ago and thought it was amazing, really powerful stuff. Then a couple of friends went to the Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry and, when I heard, I felt really pleased for them because they got to actually meet Bill Johnson and study under him.

Over time that sense shifted, as their periodic newsletters shifted in tone. They started off with a sense of asking "if anyone would like to support us financially in this we'd be really grateful" to a far more relentless push for people to "sow into our ministry and reap the rewards". That was the first warning sign for me.

The second warning sign was the way they described healings that apparently took place. The focus always seemed to be on the latest silly stunt pulled by the "healer" and less on the God behind the healing.

The third warning sign was a church I visit. There's a particular place I often visit and when I'm there I have a "home from home" church. I was aware it picked up all sorts of weird and wonderful practises, and I heard Bill Johnson, Bethel, and "sozo" mentioned a lot. The way those names seemed to be constantly mentioned alongside all sorts of weird theology made me wonder.

So I spent some time on Google, and can't say I was surprised when I found substantial amounts of information suggesting he was anything from a false teacher to a wolf. Many sites appeared to be little more than rants, so I found one that referenced the book I had and looked at the claims it made against what Johnson actually wrote in the book. At that stage I was minded to agree that he probably wasn't a teacher to follow but wanted something more concrete - based on my thoughts I would have steered clear of him but wouldn't expect anyone else to do the same unless I could show them something specific and concrete. At the same time I started to re-read When Heaven Invades Earth with a mind more inclined to "test all things" and the more I read the more uneasy I became.

Reading over the article at (An Invasion of Error: A Review of Bill Johnson—When Heaven Invades Earth) focussed a number of issues I had with his book. I haven't relisted them because the article seems to cover things pretty well.

I read the back page synopsis of another one of his books at a Christian bookstore (I forget which book it was now) and the gist of it was that we had a load of blank checks given to us by God and all we had to do was effectively fill them in and sign them and we could have anything we wanted. I can't see that as anything other than a twisting of Scripture.

Personally I find it very distasteful when churches offer expensive courses where it's not clear just what is offered in return. Bethel offers a course for some $800 per person to learn how to be a worship leader, and their School of Supernatural Ministry charges something in the region of $4500 per year. It is hard to see how any man can teach any other man how to use spiritual gifts - if God has given me a gift then the best anyone can do is offer guidance in how to use it (in which case it's hard to see what value a multi-year course offers) and if God has not given me that gift then no man can teach me how to use it (in which case a multi-year course offers no value at all).

Do your own research, look online for accounts for and against his ministry and test them. If you can find one of his books in a thrift store have a read, but if you do read it make sure to read verses he quotes in context and consider what the Scriptures were intended to say rather than the meaning that might be implied from an isolated verse or two.

To be clear, I have no issue with letting the Holy Spirit move and believe that to do any less is to put God in a box. That said I find the idea that man can control the supernatural, as if we can simply speak things into being as a matter of routine, is dangerously close to deifying man and relegating God to little more than a servant who does our bidding.

To summarise, from what I can tell Bethel is a money-making venture that happens to incorporate a church, and Bill Johnson is someone who uses Scriptures that apparently support what he says but only when they are taken out of context and twisted.

 

[MikeBigg]

Are these two men worthy of respect as teachers in your opinion? I find a lot of books that interest me spiritually written by them or endorsed by them and I hear a lot of bad about them, especially Randy Clark for his involvement in the Toronto Blessing. Yet I know little about them so I ask for collective wisdom here, are they reliable or no...

FWIW, I like both these guys.

People who don't like things like the Toronto blessing won't like Randy Clark - he was the invited preacher at Airport when things started.

I have heard Randy speak many times and had 1 to 1 conversations with the guy. I find him to be gentle and humble.

I was in a meeting where he was asked if there was anything he regretted about "Toronto". His answer surprised me. He said he was in a meeting "drunk" [in the Spirit] and a local pastor asked him a question. Randy said he had replied flippantly and offended the pastor. He said he regretted that.

I appreciate that kind of honesty in a man.

Bill Johnson says of Randy that he has learnt more from Randy in the healing realm than any other person.

You should read one of their books - there is one they wrote together on healing, that one might be suitable. Like all books, they aren't the Bible - you don't have to agree with what they say.

FYI, my position is pro-Toronto. There may have been some issues, but I believe to have been a genuine outpouring of God that is still positively influencing the church today.

I hope this helps a little.

Blessings,

Mike

 

[MikeBigg]

Randy Clark is Vineyard. Not sure where Bill Johnson was trained. Neither is a wolf.

Randy Clark was Baptist trained and got associated with Vineyard whilst a baptist pastor after a team from Vineyard came to his church and they saw healings and miracles.

Randy's association with Vineyard ended during the Toronto season. I' unsure of the reason why.

It was the 20th anniversary of Toronto in January and they had some meetings to celebrate or remember or whatever they called. It was on god.tv and may still be on there.

You might like to check out the one where Randy talks - he gives his history and how it led to Toronto.


Blessings,

Mike

 

[mrhappy3]

As always I take people as i find them - I learned long ago to make my own mind up - I regularly read when "heaven invades earth" AND "there is more" by both of these guys and there is nothing in them that offends in the slightest. I get a bit fed up with people pointing fingers all the time and especially the term WOLF. I find it ridiculous...what are they DEVILS in disguise ? Maybe there doctrines may be a little off in places, but all the so called GREATS had their flaws as well. As BJ says, NO ONE HAS A FULL GRASP OF SCRIPTURE.

 

[PersephonesTear]

Are these two men worthy of respect as teachers in your opinion? I find a lot of books that interest me spiritually written by them or endorsed by them and I hear a lot of bad about them, especially Randy Clark for his involvement in the Toronto Blessing. Yet I know little about them so I ask for collective wisdom here, are they reliable or no...

The names vaguely ring a bell, but they are not people I have been associated with or know much about. My dad was briefly very interested in the Vineyard movement during the 90's, but none of the insane churches that our family went to through the years were Vineyard churches. It seemed that most of our churches were, I guess you could say, supportive of Vineyard churches, though? It's difficult to explain, because they were all non-denominational churches. So while they may laud or criticize specific denominations, it was fairly well understood that we were not a part of them even if our beliefs were the same.

NAR is not a term that I had heard before posting on these boards, however... The Wikipedia entry on the New Apostolic Reformation suggests that many of my childhood churches were, in fact, quite firmly in the NAR camp. At the very least, they all strongly taught that the offices of Prophet and Apostle were being restored, and they were very heavy-handed on ideals of spiritual authority. I haven't been associated with this type of church since 2001, however, so possibly the term NAR either wasn't in use or wasn't as widely spread back then? This would explain why I had not previously heard it.

If I wanted badly enough to find out whether these fellows were solid teachers or not, I would read their books for myself and judge. But I personally tend to shy away from extra-Biblical spiritual literature except for stuff that is academically bent. So, in other words, I would have no problem reading an exegesis on the book of (insert whatever book of the Bible here) by a peer-reviewed, credentialed theologian. But I am not interested in anything that is essentially an "opinion" book by a famous pastor or a Christianized self-help manual. Any time I spend studying the Scriptures is going to be spent really studying them, not reading a pastor's opinion about them.

Different strokes for different folks, though. God speaks to each of us uniquely, and there may be people out there who can be spiritually enriched or brought closer to God by reading that type of literature.

Also, to this thing Frogster said...

It is hard to nail things down anymore. The mainstream denoms often at least have a statement of faith, or something to hold up to the light, but these free floating groups that change, splinter, etc, so information can be fresh or maybe not.

Wow, this is something that drives me up the wall, too! When I look into a ministry or go to a church, I want to know what they believe. I may be biased here in my expectations, since I was memorizing the Sixteen Fundamental Truths as a STAR when I was in junior high. This created a bit of an expectation in me that churches should be up front and literally spell out their beliefs.

Some might argue that the only litmus test that should exist is the Holy Scriptures and none other, but haven't we all learned how easy it is to twist the Scriptures by now? The Nicene Creed is a good historical example of a statement of Faith, and the circumstances surrounding its inception provide a brilliant explanation of why faith groups should have written statements of belief. They should be able to hit some very basic, key points that will tell a believer if this is the place with which one wants to throw in one's lot. Every church claims to follow the Bible, but just look at how widely spread beliefs are! The Mormons claim they follow the Bible. Jehovah's Witnesses claim they follow the Bible. But I'll bet the majority of folks on here wouldn't consider a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness teacher to be a great person from whom to receive spiritual guidance, huh? These statements of faith are just so, so, soooo important.

Goodness, if some group just wanted to say, "We believe in the Nicene Creed," and didn't elaborate further, at least then I would know that they believe the core tenants of Christianity! It would be better than nothing.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Well I honestly didn't expect such a splintering here by asking a question about two Charismatic preachers... Perhaps if I'd have brought up Johnny Mac I could understand.

I didn't buy the books, not yet at least, just didn't feel it.

I ended up buying "God Watchers" by Don Nori, Power in the Blood of Jesus by Andrew Murray, and Forgotten God by Francis Chan....

Perhaps once I'm done with those I will look into Bill Johnson and Randy Clark...

For what it's worth I bought a book once about Supernatural Evangelism written by Chris Overstreet or something like that... The man was a young adult pastor under Bill Johnson.. The book was good by and large, but the parts that were questionable were WAY OUT THERE and I suppose that has caused me to question it a bit more...