Biblical sufficiency vs Modern Questions?

[DNB]

I believe Jesus made unfermented wine (non intoxicating fresh grape juice) as a part of his miracle at Cana. Here is a thread at CF, I created a while back on this (if you are interested).

6 Biblical Reasons Why Jesus Made Unfermented Wine (Grape Juice).

Here is another CF thread on the topic of wine in the Bible.

The Bible and Older Dictionaries say that 'wine" is also grape juice.

Anyways, I believe much confusion arises on this particular topic, because folks fail to realize that there are...

Three Types of Wine in the Bible:

Among the saints and various cultures, wine in Biblical times was mixed with water. This would be one of the three types of wine mentioned in the Bible. Here is a quick list of the three types of wine in the Bible:

#1. Fermented Wine (Strong in alcoholic content).
It was primarily barbarians or pagan Gentle nations who drank this kind of wine.

#2. Fermented Wine Diluted by Water (Low in alcoholic content).
This was the type of wine the Israelite drank and it was the wine that was served by the wedding organizer at Cana. Israelites would store fully fermented wine in leather pouches and or by other methods and then they would dilute it with water in order to drink it.

#3. Unfermented Wine or Freshly Squeezed Grape Juice (A non intoxicating beverage).
This was the wine that Jesus made at the wedding at Cana. It is also the wine used in the Passover.​

I believe the wine during Bible times that the Old Testament saints drank was Wine Type #2, whereby it was a wine mixed with water and was lower in alcoholic content (Which was the wine seen at the Wedding of Cana before Christ made Wine Type #3, which was non intoxicating grape juice or unfermented wine); In other words, the wines commonly drank by the OT saints was not like the strong wines of today; And Jesus made grape juice that made was considered the “best wine.” Wines of today (By wine tasters) are considered the best by their taste and not how much they can intoxicate you.

Wine mixed (diluted) with Water Verses:

Revelation 14:10 says,
“The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb”
(Contrast this with Psalms 75:8)

1 Timothy 5:23 says,
"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

Proverbs 9:2 (NIV) says,
"She has prepared her meat and mixed her wine; she has also set her table."

Proverbs 23:31 - Do not look at wine when it is red.

John 19:34 - Blood and water mingled together from Christ's side; And Scripture essentially says the wine in the Lord's supper is representative of Jesus's blood (See Matthew 26:27-29).

Isaiah 1:22 CJB
“Your silver is no longer pure, your wine is watered down.”

Pure silver, which would be too soft to be durable, is mixed with 5-20% copper in an alloy known as sterling silver.

How silver is made - material, making, history, used, processing, industry.

If one were to take note: One has to mix copper in silver in order for it to be durable so as to be used. Just as one must use water in their mixture of wine to drink it more safely like an Israelite.

So the idea here is that the silver (mixed with copper) they use has become so dross (or watered down it is then cheap. Just as the wine (mixed with water) is diluted even more whereby it is cheap wine to the Israelite.

Wine could be bought and carried in an undiluted state within leather skin like bottles and then later mixed with water for use. Timothy was told to use a little wine in his water because of the infirmities in his stomach. Paul was telling him to use Biblical wine so as to resolve a medical issue.

Extra Biblical Sources on how wine was mixed with water:

2 Maccabees 15:39, Talmud, and Justin Martyr, etc.

Thank you BH, ...I read your article, some great points, not sure if I'm entirely convinced just yet. I'd have to investigate further upon it for me to be conclusive...thanks again!

 

[GaveMeJoy]

Thank you BH, ...I read your article, some great points, not sure if I'm entirely convinced just yet. I'd have to investigate further upon it for me to be conclusive...thanks again!

I know, super interesting right? I had to check my assumptions at the door on that one even tho I don’t agree. There’s hope for the internet after all!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thank you BH, ...I read your article, some great points, not sure if I'm entirely convinced just yet. I'd have to investigate further upon it for me to be conclusive...thanks again!

Your welcome. Yes, and most definitely research it some more to seek the truth on it for yourself, brother.

Blessings to you in the Lord, today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Wine in that sense was also used to kill bacteria and parasites in the water. You wouldn't want to drink straight river water without some method of killing all the microorganisms in it. Boiling it, alcohol, iodine, something like that helps make the water safe to drink.

Please read the entirety of my threads on the topic of alcohol or wine to learn what I actually believe on that topic. I have argued that particular topic to death. I have discussed it for a couple of hundred pages on various different Christian forums over the years. I have heard all the opinions before and points that somebody could possibly bring up. Please do your homework on what Abstentionists believe and what their view is in regards to the concerns that you have. I say this because I am not going to get into an endless debate again on that topic. Folks will defend their alcohol consumption until their last dying breath despite what the Scriptures say and despite what history says, and despite the statistics of the dangers of consuming it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Interesting. So you think all the scriptures saying not to get drunk on wine are referring to non mixed wine?

The concept of bringing cheap wine out later after the good wine is quite obviously based on the fact that the wine was an intoxicant, and people can’t tell the difference after they have had some initially, but it’s a cool thought interesting!!!

It's not what I think. It is what history reports. Various different historical documents say that the Israelite had mixed their wine with water. Those who worship a beverage or hold it in high esteem as a part of their old life are not going to be able to see such things in history and they will simply reject such documents because they do not align with their personal view of alcohol being their idol. But again, I am not going to endless argue with folks on this topic. Check out the threads for yourself and do some research on the internet, my friend.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Literally NONE of the hospitalizations have been from vaping the actual flower. They have all been from processed oil cartridges. The specific type of illness they are getting is called Eosinophilic Pneumonia. Which results from globs of oil that the cannabinoids are suspended in (being that it is a fat soluable compound rather than water soluable) accumulating in the lungs and Eosinophils (white blood cells usually related to handling larger invaders like parasites) try to envelop the oil globs and die, resulting in basically pus, fluid, and inflammation in the lungs. This doesn't happen from vaping the actual flower because it's not suspended in oil, and there are no thickening agents added (which are more oils, Vitamin E is another fat soluable compound)
so is it perfectly safe? No. But it's much safer than smoking, and much more reliable for dosing without getting too much or too little than eating.
You want to know what really destroys the body? Inflammatory disease. I went without proper treatment for years trying to find something that worked. My toes and elbows are DEFORMED from the illness. When your immune system chews up your cartilage it disfigures and cripples you for life. Whatever damage may possibly done from vaping flower is comparatively benign to the damage the disease does when it's not properly being treated.
As an aside I am on 2 other prescription medications trying to handle this. Without all 3 things, I stop being in remission.
1 of the drugs, is Methotrexate, a chemotherapy agent used to treat brain cancer, it is so toxic to your liver that your doctor will tell you for your own health you should have no more than 1 alcoholic beverage a week and you really shouldn't have any at all (which is what I do). Even despite avoiding alcohol my liver is being poisoned by this drug and we have had to scale back my dosage (making the condition harder to control) because my liver values are high. The other prescription is Humira, which weakens your immune system. I went from autoimmune to immunocompromised to compensate.
So if you take a hard line on damage to your body, that means you take a hard line on any medications even though the damage a disease can do might be more impactful on your life. You have to weigh benefits vs harm. Improving quality of life with not being in pain, and being able to walk at least short distances (the bone on bone erosion in my knees still limits me on distance or time spent standing), is a dramatic improvement.
So put it in perspective. Should I care more about other people's prejudices than my own health and well being?

If you do not see the information I posted as being a danger, then nothing will convince you. You will be hard pressed defend your marijuana use until your last dying breath if that is what you believe is correct and right for your life. For me: I believe the man of God would regard His own soul as precious and he would not want to play games with his own soul. I believe that a Christian would rather play it safe than be sorry in the end. They would rather take the narrow path than the wide gate path that everyone is on. For if such a thing turned out to be a serious sin in God's eyes that separated me from Him, I would not want to take the risk. But you are free to take that risk if you like. Just know that I did warn you in love so as to protect your own soul.

 

[Semper-Fi]

You want to know what really destroys the body?
Inflammatory disease.

The starting point for this disorder most
times originates in the gut. Research shows
that your lifestyle choices can have strong
effects on inflammatory diseases.

Chronic Inflammation: Taming the Fire Within
Chronic Inflammation: Taming the Fire Within

 

[Semper-Fi]

While when the law in the US was that it was strictly illegal, that was an easy question to answer because Romans 13 teaches us to abide by the laws of the land, even the secular ones, because God put that authority in place.

If you consume pot, it is still illegal
and you are breaking federal law.

"Even as several states and Washington, DC, allow marijuana, the federal government still strictly prohibits pot. Under the scheduling system, the federal government classifies marijuana as a schedule 1 drug, meaning it’s perceived to have no medical value and a high potential for abuse."

 

[Semper-Fi]

the law in the US was that it was strictly illegal.

Do you live in Montana?
Is pot even legal to use and have there ?
Where do you buy your pot ?

 

[DNB]

I know, super interesting right? I had to check my assumptions at the door on that one even tho I don’t agree. There’s hope for the internet after all!

Agreed, well said!

 

[Semper-Fi]

"Marijuana has not been approved for any medical use by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration."

Yeah, I'm going to have to ask for citations on this.

FDA Regulation of Cannabis and Cannabis-Derived Products: Q&A

3. Has FDA approved any medical products
containing cannabis or cannabis-derived
compounds such as CBD?

A. To date, the agency has not approved a marketing application for cannabis for the treatment of any disease or condition. FDA has, however, approved one cannabis-derived and three cannabis-related drug products. These approved products are only available with a prescription from a licensed healthcare provider........"

 

[Jamdoc]

Please read the entirety of my threads on the topic of alcohol or wine to learn what I actually believe on that topic. I have argued that particular topic to death. I have discussed it for a couple of hundred pages on various different Christian forums over the years. I have heard all the opinions before and points that somebody could possibly bring up. Please do your homework on what Abstentionists believe and what their view is in regards to the concerns that you have. I say this because I am not going to get into an endless debate again on that topic. Folks will defend their alcohol consumption until their last dying breath despite what the Scriptures say and despite what history says, and despite the statistics of the dangers of consuming it.

having been a medic and watched Marines drink creek water and all come down with Giardia despite my protests not to drink it (they thought they'd be fine because "doc we're Marines we can handle it oorah"), I'd say .. I wouldn't drink water out of a river or creek without some way of sterilizing it. I'd say boiling is probably the BEST way.. but if watered down wine would do it and you're not getting drunk from it... better than having diarrhea for weeks.

 

[Jamdoc]

If you do not see the information I posted as being a danger, then nothing will convince you. You will be hard pressed defend your marijuana use until your last dying breath if that is what you believe is correct and right for your life. For me: I believe the man of God would regard His own soul as precious and he would not want to play games with his own soul. I believe that a Christian would rather play it safe than be sorry in the end. They would rather take the narrow path than the wide gate path that everyone is on. For if such a thing turned out to be a serious sin in God's eyes that separated me from Him, I would not want to take the risk. But you are free to take that risk if you like. Just know that I did warn you in love so as to protect your own soul.

alright so let's say I dropped the weed, but I was still taking the chemotherapy agent, I'd still be poisoning myself but I bet you'd have 0 biblical concerns with that, just because it does not carry the stigma attached to marijuana.
That makes it all seem very hypocritical to cite your reason as being "not damaging the body/temple"
when the another drug that I use medically is even more damaging, and not treating the disease is more damaging and debilitating. But nobody has problem with a drug that is toxic to your liver and makes your hair fall out, because hey at least stoners don't use it to get high.

 

[Jamdoc]

"Marijuana has not been approved for any medical use by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration."




FDA Regulation of Cannabis and Cannabis-Derived Products: Q&A

3. Has FDA approved any medical products
containing cannabis or cannabis-derived
compounds such as CBD?

A. To date, the agency has not approved a marketing application for cannabis for the treatment of any disease or condition. FDA has, however, approved one cannabis-derived and three cannabis-related drug products. These approved products are only available with a prescription from a licensed healthcare provider........"

That's actually incorrect now. Search for Epidiolex. It's CBD, a cannabis extract approved by the FDA, and of course the only thing approved of so far is the same thing you can buy from a dispensary for $20 for a month supply costs $32,500 a year from a big pharma company.

 

[Jamdoc]

Do you live in Montana?
Is pot even legal to use and have there ?
Where do you buy your pot ?

yes, it's legal, my rheumatologist prescribes it and I'm in a state government run program.

 

[Jamdoc]

On the focus on the appearance of evil, I'd like to point out some scripture.

Matthew 9:11
Matthew 12:24
Don't be a Pharisee and assume evil by appearance colored by your own prejudices.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

alright so let's say I dropped the weed, but I was still taking the chemotherapy agent, I'd still be poisoning myself but I bet you'd have 0 biblical concerns with that, just because it does not carry the stigma attached to marijuana.
That makes it all seem very hypocritical to cite your reason as being "not damaging the body/temple"
when the another drug that I use medically is even more damaging, and not treating the disease is more damaging and debilitating. But nobody has problem with a drug that is toxic to your liver and makes your hair fall out, because hey at least stoners don't use it to get high.

Like I said, I do not have a problem with marijuana if it is not inhaled via by smoking or vaping and it is used solely to ease pain as long as you don't advertise that you are taking it to people so as to give them the wrong impression about you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

On the focus on the appearance of evil, I'd like to point out some scripture.

Matthew 9:11

I understand that you want to tie this in with what I am saying, but it does not apply. Matthew 9:11 is talking about not just hanging with sinful men to be best buds but to be around them for the sole purpose so as to evangelize them. For Jesus said the sick need a Physician. Jesus told men to repent or perish (Luke 13:3).

Matthew 12:24

This is an unforgivable sin for the believer. Nothing I said relates to what the Pharisees said in this verse. To relate to what I have said with this verse is simply your not being aware of what that verse is actually saying or you have stretched the verse beyond its intent. Nowhere did I malign the character of God. I am merely showing to you from the Bible how that smoking and vaping are not the ways of God. But you can believe as you wish (of course). I cannot force you to believe what I do. I am merely preaching what I feel is good and right by my own conscience before God.

 

[Jamdoc]

Like I said, I do not have a problem with marijuana if it is not inhaled via by smoking or vaping and it is used solely to ease pain as long as you don't advertise that you are taking it to people so as to give them the wrong impression about you.

It's not advertisement it's openness about something they might have an issue with. Say I kept it secret, and then the church for whatever reason, decided to protest a dispensary I go to on the day that I go to it. I'd have to lie about the reason I was there, or come clean and have it appear WORSE by hiding it until caught, which shows guilt. By being up front to a pastor saying, I have a condition, that I wouldn't even be able to walk into a church, but I am prescribed medical marijuana and I can walk into a church because of it (obviously not while acutely affected by it right then it'd be something I'd used a day or so prior), I don't use it to get high, and I use moderately weak THC strains, just to manage inflammation. I am being honest and open with them about an issue that they might have concern over.
But do I wear pot leaf tshirts and hats and grow dreadlocks and whatever other stereotypes people have? no.
I don't always do the best job of shaving but.. I don't like the rashes that sometimes are on my face and sometimes a beard hides them.

 

[Jamdoc]

This is not having an evil appearance to God and to others because we are not just hanging with them to be best buds but we are with them so as to evangelize them. For Jesus said the sick need a Physician. Jesus told men to repent or perish (Luke 13:3).



Well, nothing I said relates to what they said. To relate to what I have said with this verse is simply your not being aware of what that verse is actually saying. Nowhere did I malign the character of God. I am merely showing to you from the Bible how that smoking and vaping are not the ways of God. But you can believe as you wish (of course). I cannot force you to believe what I do. I am merely preaching what I feel is good and right by my own conscience before God.

No I know both of what those verses are about specifically but you missed the point. The point was that the Pharisees judged based on appearance and assumed evil things without knowing the real reasons behind something. Why Jesus hung out with "a bad crowd" was not to be influenced into evil by them but to influence them to good. But from an outside lens looking in you'd see Jesus and someone might assume "he hangs with a bad crowd, so he must also be bad".
"He uses marijuana, so he must be a stoner druggy getting high"
If it was easier to dose I'd use oral route, but the times I've tried edibles, it's very hard to dose because it can take 60-120 minutes for anything to be noticed which makes you more prone to double dosing if by 90 minutes it's not working, now another hour later you're hammered and intoxicated.
Vaping I can say "this is where I stop".