BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

[FineLinen]

LARGE BEWARE ! ! !

Plan A =

"God IS the Saviour of ALL mankind...."

He is the Lifeguard of all lifeguards!

Alternate plan b =

Sorry: the lifeguard will not save you, you did not ask him.

 

[FineLinen]

have cookies and milk?

Dear lady: please send F.L. a generous portion of both.

The Lord Jesus Christ proclaims>>>

Plan A =

“When I am lifted up…I will draw/ drag off in power/ impel ALL (pas) mankind unto Me.”

alternate plan b =

When I am lifted up…I will draw/ drag off in power/ impel some (tis) mankind unto Me."

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

They are coming to take the city by force----if they have their way--they'd kill everyone inside and take over. Perhaps you would prefer that. This is every killer, rapist, every child rapist--Hitler and every other mass murderer--what do you think they are going to do if they take the city---have cookies and milk?

Maybe engage in polite doctrinal discussions like those God-fearing hellfire-loving Catholics did at Constantinople back in the day? Wait on.

But the nations have already been nuked (devoured by fire in 20:9), why deep fry them in Rev 20:15 when they're already crispy?

Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. (Rom 12:21)

 

[Saint Steven]

As I said---you have to accept His sacrifice---otherwise---it does you no good. That's why Jesus calls them lost. They are not temporarily misplaced---they are lost. Jesus paid the price for all sinners---but you must believe in Him and, if possible be baptized -- If you do not accept Him---He isn't going to shove salvation down your throat.

I was challenging your earlier statement below. Compare bold emphasis (mine) in both quotes.
You seemed to have softened your stance. Kudos.

Jesus was resurrected---and we will be too---but there is no resurrection from the 2nd death. He paid the price for the saved---not for the lost!

 

[Saint Steven]

If you have taken offense it wasn't meant to be taken that way. I just call it the way I see it and expect you to do the same.

I stepped in when I read the post. It seemed better that I should speak on his behalf than leave him to self-defense. I would have done the same for you if someone would have made such obviously erroneous statements against you.

It is a Christian principle to not be quick to defend oneself, but to be quick to defend others. I act accordingly.

 

[Saint Steven]

Well, I take Gods Word at face value, I have no reason not to on the subject of hell.

You can explain to God, when you meet Him, why you chose to see it otherwise.

We are trying to explain to you that there are translation issues. This position is not held by Universalists alone. It is widely know that the Bible has translation issues. We are focusing on the ones that have to do with UR, but there are many. Lazarus Short is doing a great job trying to explain these to you. But you seem to be blinded by your hypervigilance. (fear) It seems that your responses are driven by emotion. I suggest you lay down your weapons and talk to us like fellow believers. Does that seem reasonable?

 

[Saint Steven]

I was saying that Steven is unreasonable by questioning the plainly written Word of God.

I gave you an opportunity to prove yourself in the post below. (post #1493 page 75) Alas, I see no response.

Will the surrounding context prove that these scriptures don't mean what they plainly say? Show us, or concede the argument. I'm guessing that you didn't respond because you are unable. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps you overlooked the post and can respond now. Thanks.

Let's try it.
Using the surrounding context below, explain why 1 John 2:2 and Romans 11:32 don't mean exactly what they say.

1 John 2:1-3
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands.

Romans 11:30-33
Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

He is the Lifeguard of all lifeguards!

Yes, as per Isaiah 42-53, Israel's God-given mission was to be a lifeguard to the nations, but Israel fell into the pool and forgot how to swim, so God sent His second lifeguard to save those who were drowning, and to also revive those floating face-down on the surface. Praise be to the all-resuscitating lifeguard of lifeguards.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, as per Isaiah 42-53, Israel's God-given mission was to be a lifeguard to the nations, but Israel fell into the pool and forgot how to swim, so God sent His second lifeguard to save those who were drowning, and to also revive those floating face-down on the surface. Praise be to the all-resuscitating lifeguard of lifeguards.

This is an interesting point.
On one hand the Israelites were to be a separate people, but on the other hand a light to the nations. Peter made this statement below at the house of Cornelius.

Acts 10:28
He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean.

 

[Saint Steven]

@Charlie24
I was reading Thomas Allin and remembered your claim that Universalism had been declared heretical in the fifth century. (something along those lines)

It seems that you have unintentionally validated UR as a major doctrinal position of the early church. A formal declaration of heresy is a big deal. This would not have happened unless the state church reasoned that it was a threat to the whole RCC. (western/Latin church)

Just to be clear, there are some arguments to be made about that whole situation, but I found it interesting that you had unintentionally validated UR as a major doctrinal position of the early church. --- That is, among those who were closest to the actual events and NT figures and that knew the NT Greek language better than anyone, especially better than the western/Latin church that gave us our biased Bible translation.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

This is an interesting point.
On one hand the Israelites were to be a separate people, but on the other hand a light to the nations. Peter made this statement below at the house of Cornelius.

Acts 10:28
He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean.

That one merits its own thread. Still, I recall:

So show your love for the alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt. (De 10:19)

"And in the tribe with which the alien stays, there you shall give him his inheritance," declares the Lord GOD. (Ez 47:23)

And of course, my fave:
On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (Rev 22:2)

 

[Saint Steven]

So show your love for the alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt. (De 10:19)

"And in the tribe with which the alien stays, there you shall give him his inheritance," declares the Lord GOD. (Ez 47:23)

Even these scriptures indicate the separateness of Israel. The "aliens" received a blessing when they were joined to Israel, but it never worked the other way.

Even the Sabbath commandment applied to "any foreigner residing in your towns."

Exodus 20:10
but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Even these scriptures indicate the separateness of Israel. The "aliens" received a blessing when they were joined to Israel, but it never worked the other way.

Even the Sabbath commandment applied to "any foreigner residing in your towns."

Exodus 20:10
but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns.

Right, that's why the Jews hated the Samaritans as well, who were the mixed progeny of captives taken by the Assyrians, I heard..?

They're a racist bunch to this day. Have a look at Israel's residency policies.

 

[Saint Steven]

Right, that's why the Jews hated the Samaritans as well, who were the mixed progeny of captives taken by the Assyrians, I heard..?

They're a racist bunch to this day. Have a look at Israel's residency policies.

Yes. The parable of the Good Samaritan was a major slam on them.

I try to cut the nation of Israel a bit of slack. It is amazing that they are still there. They are surrounded and literally swimming in enemies. They spend their days dodging a hail of bullets and reading the news about yesterday's bombings.

Genesis 12:3
I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Yes. The parable of the Good Samaritan was a major slam on them.

As usual, the Good Shepherd knew where to use the rod and staff.

I try to cut the nation of Israel a bit of slack. It is amazing that they are still there. They are surrounded and literally swimming in enemies. They spend their days dodging a hail of bullets and reading the news about yesterday's bombings.

Mostly enemies of their own creation. I'm still trying to decide whether modern Israel bears any relation to scripture whatsoever.

I'm glad you didn't go for the 'only democracy in the middle east' line. The more suitable candidate there would be Lebanon.

Have you read a book called the Thirteenth Tribe by Arthur Koestler?

 

[Saint Steven]

Have you read a book called the Thirteenth Tribe by Arthur Koestler?

Nope.
I have heard of the "lost tribes" garbage though.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Nope.
I have heard of the "lost tribes" garbage though.

Koestler was a savvy Jewish journo whose thesis was that a bunch of turkic types in the geographic region between Islam and Christendom came to adopt/ hijack Judaism for all the worst reasons - the Ashkenazi, who are now the predominant racial type in Judaism. Idk if it's true, but he makes a decent case. Also he and his wife 'joint suicided' in suspicious circumstances.

 

[PuerAzaelis]

None of this really matters. An age is such a vast length of time it’s as close to infinity in human perspective so as to make no difference. A trillion trillion years is a very very long time.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Nope.
I have heard of the "lost tribes" garbage though.

The Thirteenth Tribe - Wikipedia
ARTHUR KOESTLER AND WIFE SUICIDES IN LONDON

 

[Shrewd Manager]

None of this really matters. An age is such a vast length of time it’s as close to infinity in human perspective so as to make no difference. A trillion trillion years is a very very long time.

So your point is it may take an awfully long time to get corrected. Aionios kolasis. Ok.

Aionios is more a signifier in these contexts of 'otherworldly', or 'afterlife'. It's a chameleon of a word, as can be readily seen from its various renderings in different contexts throughout the NT.

I wouldn't lean too heavily on it, especially when we've got the universal gospel, divine promises of universal salvation, a seal of those promises in holy blood, and visionary endtimes prophecies confirming their fulfillment.

You want to pick over the bones, go ahead, but you'll find the devil's in the detail. I for one don't worship a 'better check the fine print' kind of a God.