BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

[Saint Steven]

Well, I take Gods Word at face value, I have no reason not to on the subject of hell.

There you go calling an English translation of the Bible the Word of God again.
We have given you all sorts of reasons. Aren't you paying attention?

 

[Lazarus Short]

You claimed that Christ didn't pay the price for the lost. What do these scriptures say? Nothing about accepting or rejecting.

Saint Steven said: ↑
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Steven, I'm not sure that our opponents can read and comprehend the above verses properly, as they read through a veil of hellfire & brimstone. I don't think they understand fire and brimstone for that matter.

None of us have done much more than dabble our toes in the vast ocean of God's Word, so how is it that you propose to take them into deeper water? Jesus told His own disciples that He had more to tell them, but they were not ready.

 

[Charlie24]

OTOH, knowing that the Book is God's Word only in the original Hebrew and Greek, I recognize that English translations are just that: translations rendered by men, and all the various versions prove that none are perfect. I think that is why some cling with such white-knuckled grips on the KJV. King James' authorization did not make it perfect, nor did the scholars who worked on it, for scholarship is better today than in 1611. My. Two. Cents.

I believe that God picked the date in time, the group of people, and even gave the wisdom to translate His Word into the language that would become the greatest outreach for the gospel the world has ever known.

He (God) signed, sealed and delivered it.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I believe that God picked the date in time, the group of people, and even gave the wisdom to translate His Word into the language that would become the greatest outreach for the gospel the world has ever known.

He (God) signed, sealed and delivered it.

Are you a KJVO believer?

If what you say is true, then God put His stamp of approval, and don't confuse that with King James' approval - to a version advocating a "Hell" that God never claimed to have created, a "Hell" God never threatened with in or out of His Law, a "Hell" that depends on words having nothing to do with ECT, and a "Hell" mostly supported by the fictions of Dante, Milton and Mary K. Baxter, among others.

 

[Charlie24]

Steven, I'm not sure that our opponents can read and comprehend the above verses properly, as they read through a veil of hellfire & brimstone. I don't think they understand fire and brimstone for that matter.

None of us have done much more than dabble our toes in the vast ocean of God's Word, so how is it that you propose to take them into deeper water? Jesus told His own disciples that He had more to tell them, but they were not ready.

I agree it's a vast ocean. But a vast ocean of what?

 

[Der Alte]

OTOH, knowing that the Book is God's Word only in the original Hebrew and Greek, I recognize that English translations are just that: translations rendered by men, and all the various versions prove that none are perfect. I think that is why some cling with such white-knuckled grips on the KJV. King James' authorization did not make it perfect, nor did the scholars who worked on it, for scholarship is better today than in 1611. My. Two. Cents.

Older manuscripts, have been discovered which were not available to the KJV translators. I kinda grew up with the KJV but my first Greek professor was on the first NIV translation committee so I lean toward the NIV. I studied both Biblical languages at the graduate level more than 3 decades ago and have several language resources so I do not rely on versions.
Brown Driver Briggs Hebrew lexicon and Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon are available online so nobody has to rely on any version.
I notice that some folks reject the Bibles and lexicons because they are supposedly mistranslated but although I have asked several times for evidence, I have never seen any.

 

[Saint Steven]

Steven, I'm not sure that our opponents can read and comprehend the above verses properly, as they read through a veil of hellfire & brimstone. I don't think they understand fire and brimstone for that matter.

None of us have done much more than dabble our toes in the vast ocean of God's Word, so how is it that you propose to take them into deeper water? Jesus told His own disciples that He had more to tell them, but they were not ready.

Yes. They usually claim that I have taken these scriptures out of context, simply because I have posted them. - lol

Saint Steven said: ↑
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[Charlie24]

Are you a KJVO believer?

If what you say is true, then God put His stamp of approval, and don't confuse that with King James' approval - to a version advocating a "Hell" that God never claimed to have created, a "Hell" God never threatened with in or out of His Law, a "Hell" that depends on words having nothing to do with ECT, and a "Hell" mostly supported by the fictions of Dante, Milton and Mary K. Baxter, among others.

That's not true Laz!

This translation thing you are pushing is shrouded in speculation. You do not have one single fact to support the theories. All you have is speculation.

 

[Lazarus Short]

That's not true Laz!

This translation thing you are pushing is shrouded in speculation. You do not have one single fact to support the theories. All you have is speculation.

Really?

There is NO mention of Hell in any of the Bible's creation accounts. John even mentions that if God did not make it, no one else did, either. FACT.

The worst punishment specified in the law that God gave to Moses is just simple death. Hell is not mentioned or hinted at. FACT.

"Sheol" is a Hebrew word for the grave, the pit, the covered and unknown place.
"Hades" is the Greek equivalent of "sheol," but carries pagan baggage.
"Gehenna" is a Hebrew place name: a place in the real world. You can visit it today.
"Tartarus" comes from Greek mythology, and is used once in the Bible.

All of the above have been rendered as "Hell," while one word is used once, two come from a pagan culture, and none of them refer to the Hell of Dante, Milton or Mary K. Baxter. FACT.

Sorry, Charlie, but I have researched this, and you are just showing your ignorance when you call it "speculation." The translation you are pushing is shrouded in bad scholarship.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes. They usually claim that I have taken these scriptures out of context, simply because I have posted them. - lol

Saint Steven said: ↑
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

That's because you try to pick out one verse and say, this is what it means.

You can't so that!!!! You must read the context of the scripture surrounding that verse to understand the meaning.

 

[Lazarus Short]

That's because you try to pick out one verse and say, this is what it means.

You can't so that!!!! You must read the context of the scripture surrounding that verse to understand the meaning.

It is a mistake to assume, Charlie. Some of us have read the entire Bible IN CONTEXT to arrive at what we believe, believe it or not.

If you think Steven has quoted out of context, then provide the context or post not.

 

[Charlie24]

Really?

There is NO mention of Hell in any of the Bible's creation accounts. John even mentions that if God did not make it, no one else did, either. FACT.

The worst punishment specified in the law that God gave to Moses is just simple death. Hell is not mentioned or hinted at. FACT.

"Sheol" is a Hebrew word for the grave, the pit, the covered and unknown place.
"Hades" is the Greek equivalent of "sheol," but carries pagan baggage.
"Gehenna" is a Hebrew place name: a place in the real world. You can visit it today.
"Tartarus" comes from Greek mythology, and is used once in the Bible.

All of the above have been rendered as "Hell," while one word is used once, two come from a pagan culture, and none of them refer to the Hell of Dante, Milton or Mary K. Baxter. FACT.

Sorry, Charlie, but I have researched this, and you are just showing your ignorance when you call it "speculation." The translation you are pushing is shrouded in bad scholarship.

Show me the money, the facts. You can't! The above is speculation!!

If something in scripture is not where you think it should be, then it didn't happen. You don't take the scripture as it comes and find that OH that's where that came from, or that's how that happened as you read through.

 

[Saint Steven]

That's because you try to pick out one verse and say, this is what it means.

You can't so that!!!! You must read the context of the scripture surrounding that verse to understand the meaning.

Let's try it.
Using the surrounding context below, explain why 1 John 2:2 and Romans 11:32 don't mean exactly what they say.

1 John 2:1-3
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands.

Romans 11:30-33
Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!

 

[Lazarus Short]

Show me the money, the facts. You can't! The above is speculation!!

If something in scripture is not where you think it should be, then it didn't happen. You don't take the scripture as it comes and find that OH that's where that came from, or that's how that happened as you read through.

Sorry again, Charlie. I've read the entire Bible including the KJV, and I don't post what I called FACTS lightly. If you don't believe me, check the creation accounts, check the Law God gave to Moses, check the four words rendered as "Hell." Calling what I say "speculation" serves no purpose but to make me wonder how well you really know your Bible.

 

[Charlie24]

It is a mistake to assume, Charlie. Some of us have read the entire Bible IN CONTEXT to arrive at what we believe, believe it or not.

If you think Steven has quoted out of context, then provide the context or post not.

I have seen your interpretation of scripture without context and I DO NOT believe you have read it. There is no way you could have such lame interpretations unless you were told this is this and that is that.

You have not read the scripture on your own taking Gods Word for what it says. If you had we would not be having this confrontation.

 

[Saint Steven]

I have seen your interpretation of scripture without context and I DO NOT believe you have read it. There is no way you could have such lame interpretations unless you were told this is this and that is that.

You have not read the scripture on your own taking Gods Word for what it says. If you had we would not be having this confrontation.

That is NOT a fair assessment of Lazarus Short.

 

[Charlie24]

That is NOT a fair assessment of Lazarus Short.

I'm sure Laz is a great guy. I just don't believe what he said.

But that has gone both ways and will not change.

 

[Der Alte]

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Steven, I'm not sure that our opponents can read and comprehend the above verses properly, as they read through a veil of hellfire & brimstone. I don't think they understand fire and brimstone for that matter.
None of us have done much more than dabble our toes in the vast ocean of God's Word, so how is it that you propose to take them into deeper water? Jesus told His own disciples that He had more to tell them, but they were not ready.

I'm quite sure that the present company cannot read and understand the quoted "proof texts." properly.

Romans 11:20-22
(20) Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
(21) For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
(22) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.​

How could Paul mean that God was definitely going to have mercy on all [mankind] [vs. 32] when just a few verses before he warned them to be careful lest God not spare them.[vs. 21] and warned them to continue in God's goodness otherwise they also shall be cut off.[vs. 22] Now that is definite.

1Jn 2:2
(2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 3:10
(10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jn 3:15
(15) Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.​

How could John mean God was going to save the whole world when in the next chapter he said that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I have seen your interpretation of scripture without context and I DO NOT believe you have read it. There is no way you could have such lame interpretations unless you were told this is this and that is that.

You have not read the scripture on your own taking Gods Word for what it says. If you had we would not be having this confrontation.

Sorry, Charlie, but I did read the entire Bible, verse by verse, even the "begats." I think we are having this confrontation because I did not read the Book through a "theo-illogical" filter. Please excuse my little joke - my puns range from the sublime to outright groaners...

Seriously now, I was told thus and so - raised a Southern Baptist, was SDA for a while, and somewhere along the line I got the UR message - so you see, I was exposed to damnation, annihilation and UR. I dived into the KJV, of all versions, to see which theory (as I decided to term them) was correct. After two years of work, I decided UR was the best fit to the data, the Biblical text.

Now if you are wondering why I rejected damnationism as the best fit, it is because the supporting texts were too often "tweaked" and mis-translated. Yes, it's just that simple. Other versions do not have the word "hell" at all. To make a full case to you, I would need to post my entire 200+ page manuscript, which is what my notes grew into, and it's still growing...

 

[Saint Steven]

I'm sure Laz is a great guy. I just don't believe what he said.

But that has gone both ways and will not change.

Why won't it change?

Yes, he is a great guy. And look at the way you are talking to him.

Charlie24 said: ↑
I have seen your interpretation of scripture without context and I DO NOT believe you have read it. There is no way you could have such lame interpretations unless you were told this is this and that is that.

You have not read the scripture on your own taking Gods Word for what it says. If you had we would not be having this confrontation.