BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

[Der Alte]

...
Now if you are wondering why I rejected damnationism as the best fit, it is because the supporting texts were too often "tweaked" and mis-translated. Yes, it's just that simple....

How do you know when a Hebrew or Greek text is mistranslated? Unless you have had formal training in both languages, you can't! So obviously you are making your decisions based on non-biblical UR sources. And that usually works like this if it supports UR teaching it is right if it doesn't it is wrong.

 

[Charlie24]

Sorry, Charlie, but I did read the entire Bible, verse by verse, even the "begats." I think we are having this confrontation because I did not read the Book through a "theo-illogical" filter. Please excuse my little joke - my puns range from the sublime to outright groaners...

Seriously now, I was told thus and so - raised a Southern Baptist, was SDA for a while, and somewhere along the line I got the UR message - so you see, I was exposed to damnation, annihilation and UR. I dived into the KJV, of all versions, to see which theory (as I decided to term them) was correct. After two years of work, I decided UR was the best fit to the data, the Biblical text.

Now if you are wondering why I rejected damnationism as the best fit, it is because the supporting texts were too often "tweaked" and mis-translated. Yes, it's just that simple. Other versions do not have the word "hell" at all. To make a full case to you, I would need to post my entire 200+ page manuscript, which is what my notes grew into, and it's still growing...

Well I thank God that we are able to choose and practice what we believe. Many don't have that privilege.

I am sorry that we are so very far apart. I could never accept your belief and I'm sure you feel the same.

So I'll just leave you alone to worship the way you see fit. No offense taken and no harm done.

 

[Charlie24]

Why won't it change?

Yes, he is a great guy. And look at the way you are talking to him.

Charlie24 said: ↑
I have seen your interpretation of scripture without context and I DO NOT believe you have read it. There is no way you could have such lame interpretations unless you were told this is this and that is that.

You have not read the scripture on your own taking Gods Word for what it says. If you had we would not be having this confrontation.

If you have taken offense it wasn't meant to be taken that way. I just call it the way I see it and expect you to do the same.

I do believe his interpretations are lame, and I don't believe he has read the Bible taking it for what it says.

If you think this is wrong then I'll stop posting to you guys. I don't want to cause hard feelings.

 

[Hillsage]

You're the only person I've talked to on this forum that I can't for the life of me understand what you are talking about. I haven't had this problem with anyone else.

When I encountered that same understanding dilemma, in the first few years of my 47 years as a believer, you want to know what I did? I asked questions to truly understand WHY they believed WHAT they believed. I quit beating the religious drum of 'indoctrination' which I was taught when dealing with those of different 'opinions' than me. It's amazing what one can learn, when you open the religious fist which clings so tightly to a lie, that God's Spirit can't begin to teach you anything different in those areas.

Please just state your problem with me or my belief plainly and maybe I can respond.

Charlie I have no 'personal' problem with you. I truly feel sorry for you, and all who believe like you do. Because I totally relate to how you believe, since I believed that very same way from my earliest days of being raised in the 'church'. I still believed as you do doctrinally, when I walked away from God at 19 with a 'spoken' word curse over myself against Him. I walked away convinced I was going to ETERNAL HELL, telling Him I'd rather go to His ETERNAL Hell with my friends than serve a God in the "likeness" of Him (which was the "likeness" lie I was taught and believed). For the next 4 years I earned a 'go to Hell' testimony like I've heard few surpass in my 70 years. My life was drinking, drugs, dealing, fornications, out of wedlock children, divorce, adulteries, international smuggling, grand thefts, STDs and much more. The night I accepted Jesus at 23, I was selling drugs, working one night a week in a bar for cash so I wouldn't loose my unemployment check. I know sin like few here ever have and I know salvation from those sins here and now on this side of glory. I'll match my testimony for works done for God with anyone here. And when you think UR/UNI isn't a responsible part for that testimony, it is YOU WHO DOESN'T EVEN BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND THE DOCTRINE AS I HAVE AND DO.

IF, my one sentence question eluded you Charlie, believe me, I don't think it's because it was too deep. I think you are so bound with what you believe (like I was) that you fight ever understanding, let alone receiving, what we are trying to share.

So my question remains; The message we have endlessly heard all of your side repeat is this; the price of sin, for anyone not accepting Jesus, is ETERNAL HELL AND ETERNAL TORTURE. And not just any old torture, but a torture which was ETERNALLY worse than Adolf Hitler could even possibly achieve. And then you say Jesus paid a paltry death price compared to the price you would have paid. He never paid 'THE PRICE' which you put on EVERYONE. THAT IS THE PRICE YOU HAVE SET and then you give Jesus a price break which wasn't nearly as bad and only 3 days long.

Don't think I'm minimizing His sacrifice, I am not, I maximize the price of my sins and His sacrifice for them in a way you don't even understand. Your side is maximizing a penalty for most of the world. A penalty for billions which never met your litmus requirement to receive salvation by faith in the age they lived in. And the simple truth is this...they never could have.

Why isn't Jesus paying 'the price for sin' which you guys all believe is 'the price for sin'. That's still the question 'you ALL' haven't convinced me you've answered.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

But the pain will subside, and in the end that person will be with Christ.

Beware of false doctrine my friend

There would be no eternal damnation if not for evil.

What's Jesus' mission again? To seek and smite the lost? To not save the world but that it might be condemned through him? To take captives, to dish out leprousy, to blind the eyes and to raise the dead only to torture them eternally, so generally to be evil?

So Yahushua/ Jesus' real name, according to you, is His Damnation.

What if it's you who's captive to the sorcery of Babylon church doctrines, who's blinded by pride and ignorant to the devil's schemes. Surely not?

 

[Lazarus Short]

Well I thank God that we are able to choose and practice what we believe. Many don't have that privilege.

I am sorry that we are so very far apart. I could never accept your belief and I'm sure you feel the same.

So I'll just leave you alone to worship the way you see fit. No offense taken and no harm done.

Agreed.

 

[Lazarus Short]

How do you know when a Hebrew or Greek text is mistranslated? Unless you have had formal training in both languages, you can't! So obviously you are making your decisions based on non-biblical UR sources. And that usually works like this if it supports UR teaching it is right if it doesn't it is wrong.

Obviously? No, not at all. With a good Concordance, a good dictionary and access to interlinear texts, I can uncover enough to see trickery and bad translation. I kept my tools simple to counter just such criticism and have learned to distrust "the experts." As I told Charlie, I couched damnation, annihilation and UR as theories and searched to see which one fit the data (Biblical text) better. Damnation was a tough theory to falsify, but if a theory is not falsifiable, what good is it? Annihilation was a distant third.

 

[Der Alte]

...

When I encountered that same understanding dilemma, in the first few years of my 47 years as a believer, you want to know what I did? I asked questions to truly understand WHY they believed WHAT they believed. I quit beating the religious drum of 'indoctrination' which I was taught when dealing with those of different 'opinions' than me. It's amazing what one can learn, when you open the religious fist which clings so tightly to a lie, that God's Spirit can't begin to teach you anything different in those areas.
Charlie I have no 'personal' problem with you. I truly feel sorry for you, and all who believe like you do. Because I totally relate to how you believe, since I believed that very same way from my earliest days of being raised in the 'church'. I still believed as you do doctrinally, when I walked away from God at 19 with a 'spoken' word curse over myself against Him. I walked away convinced I was going to ETERNAL HELL, telling Him I'd rather go to His ETERNAL Hell with my friends than serve a God in the "likeness" of Him (which was the "likeness" lie I was taught and believed). For the next 4 years I earned a 'go to Hell' testimony like I've heard few surpass in my 70 years. My life was drinking, drugs, dealing, fornications, out of wedlock children, divorce, adulteries, international smuggling, grand thefts, STDs and much more. The night I accepted Jesus at 23, I was selling drugs, working one night a week in a bar for cash so I wouldn't loose my unemployment check. I know sin like few here ever have and I know salvation from those sins here and now on this side of glory. I'll match my testimony for works done for God with anyone here. And when you think UR/UNI isn't a responsible part for that testimony, it is YOU WHO DOESN'T EVEN BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND THE DOCTRINE AS I HAVE AND DO.
IF, my one sentence question eluded you Charlie, believe me, I don't think it's because it was too deep. I think you are so bound with what you believe (like I was) that you fight ever understanding, let alone receiving, what we are trying to share.
So my question remains; The message we have endlessly heard all of your side repeat is this; the price of sin, for anyone not accepting Jesus, is ETERNAL HELL AND ETERNAL TORTURE. And not just any old torture, but a torture which was ETERNALLY worse than Adolf Hitler could even possibly achieve. And then you say Jesus paid a paltry death price compared to the price you would have paid. He never paid 'THE PRICE' which you put on EVERYONE. THAT IS THE PRICE YOU HAVE SET and then you give Jesus a price break which wasn't nearly as bad and only 3 days long.
Don't think I'm minimizing His sacrifice, I am not, I maximize the price of my sins and His sacrifice for them in a way you don't even understand. Your side is maximizing a penalty for most of the world. A penalty for billions which never met your litmus requirement to receive salvation by faith in the age they lived in. And the simple truth is this...they never could have.
Why isn't Jesus paying 'the price for sin' which you guys all believe is 'the price for sin'. That's still the question 'you ALL' haven't convinced me you've answered.

Prove me wrong? Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Meaningless rubbish. If anything is mistranslated PROVE it, don't just repeat it over and over .

Help me out here where does Jesus, Himself, says He will save the unrighteous after death?

Luk 4:18-19
(18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
(19) To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.​

The word translated captives is literally "prisoners of war." These are all part of Jesus' ministry in this world. It says nothing about people after death

Assumptions and presuppositions. Please explain to me how something that is "implied" is "unequivocal?"

Wrong! I reject where folks like you reinterpret the words of Jesus, to fit your presumptions about the writings of the disciples. Here you blew off the seven verses I quoted as being mistranslated. Strange how the verses which you think support UR are not mistranslated in the same Bible.

More assumptions/presuppositions.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.""Who art thou that judgeth another man's servant?"

Yet more assumptions/presuppositions. Not oral tradition, scriptures. Perhaps you should stick to reading what the Bible says instead of relying on your own assumptions/presuppositions.
Nothing Jesus said contradicted what the Jews taught about hell.

Isa_66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.​

Luk 4:18-19 is Jesus ministry in this world, it says nothing about going to hell.

Haha, you know I'm right der Alter, I feel your agitation. Jesus liberates the captives and raises the dead to life. Because he holds the keys. He took care of Lazarus and the maiden, did he not? So show me unequivocally where he says his love expires when you do.

And He answered and said to them, "Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the BLIND RECEIVE SIGHT, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the POOR HAVE THE GOSPEL PREACHED TO THEM. (Lk 7:22)

 

[Der Alte]

Obviously? No, not at all. With a good Concordance, a good dictionary and access to interlinear texts, I can uncover enough to see trickery and bad translation. I kept my tools simple to counter just such criticism and have learned to distrust "the experts." As I told Charlie, I couched damnation, annihilation and UR as theories and searched to see which one fit the data (Biblical text) better. Damnation was a tough theory to falsify, but if a theory is not falsifiable, what good is it? Annihilation was a distant third.

Nothing you have said can provide evidence which enables someone with no language skills to determine the best translation of any Greek or Hebrew word. A concordance only shows where words occur and how they are translated in a particular version. Strong's e.g. is paired with the KJV. Interlinears show how a particular scholar translated words.
Here is a definition of a Greek word from BDAG. The blue highlights are the historical sources the scholars used to determine the meaning. Scholars don't sit around and make up definitions.

κόλασις, εως, ἡ (s. prec. three entries; ‘punishment, chastisement’ so Hippocr.+; Diod S 1, 77, 9; 4, 44, 3; Aelian, VH 7, 15; SIG2 680, 13; LXX; TestAbr, Test12Patr, ApcEsdr, ApcSed; AscIs 3:13; Philo, Leg. ad Gai. 7, Mos. 1, 96; Jos., Ant. 17, 164; SibOr 5, 388; Ar. [Milne 76, 43]; Just.)
① infliction of suffering or pain in chastisement, punishment so lit. κ. ὑπομένειν undergo punishment Ox 840, 6; δειναὶ κ. (4 Macc 8:9) MPol 2:4; ἡ ἐπίμονος κ. long-continued torture ibid. Of the martyrdom of Jesus (Orig., C. Cels. 1, 48, 95; 8, 43, 12) PtK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices by polytheists ironically described as punishment, injury (s. κολάζω) Dg 2:9.
② transcendent retribution, punishment (ApcSed 4:1 κόλασις καὶ πῦρ ἐστιν ἡ παίδευσίς σου.—Diod S 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80 [30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX; Philo, Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos., Ant. 1, 60 al.; Just.; Did., Gen., 115, 28; 158, 10) ApcPt 17:32; w. αἰκισμός 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal punishment (w. θάνατος) Dg 9:2 (Diod S 8, 15, 1 κ. ἀθάνατος). Of hell: τόπος κολάσεως ApcPt 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 εἰς ἐκεῖνον τὸν τόπον αἱ κολάσεως δεόμεναι ψυχαὶ καταπέμπονται); ἐν τῇ κ. ἐκείνῃ 10:25; ibid. ἐφορῶσαι τὴν κ. ἐκείνων (cp. ApcEsdr 5:10 p. 30, 2 Tdf. ἐν τῇ κ.). ἐκ τῆς κ. ApcPt Rainer (cp. ἐκ τὴν κ. ApcSed 8:12a; εἰς τὴν κ. 12b and TestAbr B 11 p. 116, 10 [Stone p. 80]). ἀπέρχεσθαι εἰς κ. αἰώνιον go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 (οἱ τῆς κ. ἄξιοι ἀπελεύσονται εἰς αὐτήν Iren. 2, 33, 5 [Harv. I 380, 8]; κ. αἰώνιον as TestAbr A 11 p. 90, 7f [Stone p. 28]; TestReub 5:5; TestGad 7:5; Just., A I, 8, 4; D. 117, 3; Celsus 8, 48; pl. Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 90, 13]). ῥύεσθαι ἐκ τῆς αἰωνίου κ. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. τὴν αἰώνιον κ. ἐξαγοράζεσθαι buy one’s freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3 v.l. κακαὶ κ. τοῦ διαβόλου IRo 5:3. κ. τινος punishment for someth. (Ezk 14:3, 7; 18:30; Philo, Fuga 65 ἁμαρτημάτων κ.) ἔχειν κόλασίν τινα τῆς πονηρίας αὐτοῦ Hs 9, 18, 1. ἀναπαύστως ἕξουσιν τὴν κ. they will suffer unending punishment ApcPt Bodl. 9–12. ὁ φόβος κόλασιν ἔχει fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 (cp. Philo, In Flacc. 96 φόβος κολάσεως).—M-M. TW.[1]
[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 555). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.​

 

[FineLinen]

Very large BEWARE

Plan A =

"For He pre-destined us to be adopted by Himself as sons through Jesus Christ--such being His gracious will and pleasure-- to the praise of the splendour of His grace with which He has enriched us in the beloved One. It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you..."

Alternate plan b =

God has not pre-destined anything to Himself. He has no cherished purpose and has given up any thought of not loosing His vast creation to evil.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41

Doesn't say they stay there forever.

• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"

aionios kolasis.

• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"

Where there's life there's hope.

• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50

Obviously figurative. Nobody gnashes teeth in a fire, standard procedure is the release of bloodcurdling screams followed by silence interspersed with crackling.

• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6

Yes, they'll get a whupping. So don't offend us please, O wise one.

• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23

Not forever.

• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24

Better off dead than be a damnationist, if you ask me.

• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12

Sodom's back! And they're gonna need less work repenting than Bethsaida.

Happy now?

 

[Charlie24]

When I encountered that same understanding dilemma, in the first few years of my 47 years as a believer, you want to know what I did? I asked questions to truly understand WHY they believed WHAT they believed. I quit beating the religious drum of 'indoctrination' which I was taught when dealing with those of different 'opinions' than me. It's amazing what one can learn, when you open the religious fist which clings so tightly to a lie, that God's Spirit can't begin to teach you anything different in those areas.


Charlie I have no 'personal' problem with you. I truly feel sorry for you, and all who believe like you do. Because I totally relate to how you believe, since I believed that very same way from my earliest days of being raised in the 'church'. I still believed as you do doctrinally, when I walked away from God at 19 with a 'spoken' word curse over myself against Him. I walked away convinced I was going to ETERNAL HELL, telling Him I'd rather go to His ETERNAL Hell with my friends than serve a God in the "likeness" of Him (which was the "likeness" lie I was taught and believed). For the next 4 years I earned a 'go to Hell' testimony like I've heard few surpass in my 70 years. My life was drinking, drugs, dealing, fornications, out of wedlock children, divorce, adulteries, international smuggling, grand thefts, STDs and much more. The night I accepted Jesus at 23, I was selling drugs, working one night a week in a bar for cash so I wouldn't loose my unemployment check. I know sin like few here ever have and I know salvation from those sins here and now on this side of glory. I'll match my testimony for works done for God with anyone here. And when you think UR/UNI isn't a responsible part for that testimony, it is YOU WHO DOESN'T EVEN BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND THE DOCTRINE AS I HAVE AND DO.

IF, my one sentence question eluded you Charlie, believe me, I don't think it's because it was too deep. I think you are so bound with what you believe (like I was) that you fight ever understanding, let alone receiving, what we are trying to share.

So my question remains; The message we have endlessly heard all of your side repeat is this; the price of sin, for anyone not accepting Jesus, is ETERNAL HELL AND ETERNAL TORTURE. And not just any old torture, but a torture which was ETERNALLY worse than Adolf Hitler could even possibly achieve. And then you say Jesus paid a paltry death price compared to the price you would have paid. He never paid 'THE PRICE' which you put on EVERYONE. THAT IS THE PRICE YOU HAVE SET and then you give Jesus a price break which wasn't nearly as bad and only 3 days long.

Don't think I'm minimizing His sacrifice, I am not, I maximize the price of my sins and His sacrifice for them in a way you don't even understand. Your side is maximizing a penalty for most of the world. A penalty for billions which never met your litmus requirement to receive salvation by faith in the age they lived in. And the simple truth is this...they never could have.

Why isn't Jesus paying 'the price for sin' which you guys all believe is 'the price for sin'. That's still the question 'you ALL' haven't convinced me you've answered.

Now you are making perfect sense. Whether me or you, I don't know, but we are understanding one another now.

The question is "Why isn't Jesus paying the price for sin which we believe is the price for sin?

Now let's stick to this one question and if I don't answer the question to your satisfaction point it out and we can get to the bottom of this.

Jesus is not paying, as an ongoing payment for sin. He has paid the price for sin.

He died on the cross for past, present, and future sins.

God demands mans blood for the price of sin. It is impossible for sinful man to pay his own sin debt. God in His mercy saw that man was doomed. He must pay for his sin but he can't. This where Jesus comes into the picture.

Now back to why God demands the blood of man for sin. God is righteous and holy, no sin can dwell in His presence. But he wants us in His presence. So what can God do?

He sent His Son to pay the sin debt of man that "whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Saved from what?

Rom. 2:5
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

We are saved from Gods wrath. His wrath is present because we don't repent, that's the "hardness and impenitent heart."

What is Gods "righteous judgement?"

2Thes. 2:12
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The price for sin thank God has been paid by Christ but we must repent of our sin to escape the judgement.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

What does this mean?
Rev. 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Can God take your part out of the Book of Life if it is not in the Book of Life?

It means if you read down the consummation of God's master plan to renew all creation, and instead filthy it up with a mass human bbq, He's not gonna be happy.

 

[Charlie24]

It means if you read down the consummation of God's master plan to renew all creation, and instead filthy it up with a mass human bbq, He's not gonna be happy.

It has nothing to say about OSAS?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

It has nothing to say about OSAS?

The Book of Life is an open book.

 

[mmksparbud]

You claimed that Christ didn't pay the price for the lost. What do these scriptures say? Nothing about accepting or rejecting.

Saint Steven said: ↑
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

As I said---you have to accept His sacrifice---otherwise---it does you no good. That's why Jesus calls them lost. They are not temporarily misplaced---they are lost. Jesus paid the price for all sinners---but you must believe in Him and, if possible be baptized -- If you do not accept Him---He isn't going to shove salvation down your throat.
Rom_10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
1Co_1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Gal_3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Act_19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act_22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Rom_6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Gal_3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Mar_16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Jesus does not hold anyone under the water to baptize them by force.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Jesus does not hold anyone under the water to baptize them by force.

You can lead a horse to water, sometimes you need to lob it in before it will take a drink.

And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15)

Sounds like compulsion to me. So are you saying he won't baptise by force but he'll bbq by force? Ah, the trade mark goodness of God.

 

[FineLinen]

As I said---you have to accept His sacrifice---otherwise---it does you no good. .

 

[mmksparbud]

You can lead a horse to water, sometimes you need to lob it in before it will take a drink.

And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15)

Sounds like compulsion to me. So are you saying he won't baptise by force but he'll bbq by force? Ah, the trade mark goodness of God.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

They are coming to take the city by force----if they have their way--they'd kill everyone inside and take over. Perhaps you would prefer that. This is every killer, rapist, every child rapist--Hitler and every other mass murderer--what do you think they are going to do if they take the city---have cookies and milk?