BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

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Der Alte

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"It may be said, is there not "the second death ?" Yes, assuredly. But though it were not the second merely but the thousandth death, yet it is but death: and death absolutely, in every degree and power, is destroyed, is blotted out, or there is no real meaning in S. PAUL'S song of triumph (1 Cor. xv. 55). No true victory has been won by Christ if the second death is too strong for Him. Will our opponents explain how "death" can be "SWALLOWED UP" in victory, and yet survive in its most malignant form, i.e., the second death?"
The typical heterodox practice of grabbing disparate verses and jamming them together regardless of context. By so doing anybody can make the Bible say whatever they want it to.
What is your response to this question? Did God give John a false inspiration? Does "death" in Revelation not really mean death? This is your argument therefore the burden of proof is on you to make sense out of this.
 
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The typical heterodox practice of grabbing disparate verses and jamming them together regardless of context.

That is precisely the offence committed by damnationists. Don't be a recidivist der Alter!

We on the other hand have universal salvation promises and prophecies, a universal gospel and endtimes visions confirming universal renewal.
 
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The typical heterodox practice of grabbing disparate verses and jamming them together regardless of context. By so doing anybody can make the Bible say whatever they want it to.
What is your response to this question? Did God give John a false inspiration? Does "death" in Revelation not really mean death? This is your argument therefore the burden of proof is on you to make sense out of this.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. (John 5:25)

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. (Rev 20:13)

So we see the 'dead' can refer to both the physically and the spiritually dead. Breathe life into dem dry bones.
 
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Der Alte

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According to you. I say Paul uses the 2 words because there is a distinction. I'd suggest they're not used interchangeably throughout scripture, and this only serves to show Paul had both in his vocabulary and that he made a distinction.
Not necessarily, because 'and of his kingdom there shall be no end' would be utterly redundant if the first part was 'he shall reign...forever'. So again I'd be inclined to think some other meaning or nuance is present.
So just a couple of examples showing up your latent biases der Alter. I'm not saying aionios never connotes the eternal, but it's so contingent and unruly as to make it unreliable and speculative.
A clearer case is aionios kolasis, where kolasin punishment has a purpose, a telos, so the noun itself precludes the possibility of a supposed infinite extension by the adjective
.
I certainly appreciate you giving your biased, unsupported opinion. What you suggest or what you are inclined to think is nonsense with no basis.
Of course Paul had an extensive vocabulary. He was highly educated which does not prove/disprove anything.
You have shown how you a modern non-Greek speaking person who has been indoctrinated in a particular doctrine for some years think Paul was saying but... how did a first century Greek speaking former pagan understand it?
As for redundancy Hebrew poetry was not rhyming words but saying something in two different ways. And if I recall correctly Paul was a Jew and you will find many examples in his writings.
If you are going to attempt to make a grammatical argument, I'm not interested in unsupported opinions about kolasis, telos etc. Quote me a grammar.
Remember they didn't have a umpteen GB electronic device with a bunch of Bibles on it in fact probably didn't have a Bible at all.
If aionios does not mean eternal, what words can you add to it to make it mean eternal? Cite me a grammar.
 
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Der Alte

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"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. (John 5:25)
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. (Rev 20:13)
So we see the 'dead' can refer to both the physically and the spiritually dead. Breathe life into dem dry bones.
Good now explain which one is which in Paul's writing and John's writings, and back it up, remember I'm not interested in unsupported opinion..
 
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I certainly appreciate you giving your biased, unsupported opinion. What you suggest or what you are inclined to think is nonsense with no basis.

No that's what you did der Alter. I find this risible.

Of course Paul had an extensive vocabulary. He was highly educated which does not prove/disprove anything.

Proves he knew the difference, whereas you and I might not.

You have shown how you a modern non-Greek speaking person who has been indoctrinated in a particular doctrine for some years think Paul was saying but... how did a first century Greek speaking former pagan understand it?

For all those who came to Jesus via Plato, they understood things in universal terms. Those who followed Aristotle were less robust.

As for redundancy Hebrew poetry was not rhyming words but saying something in two different ways. And if I recall correctly Paul was a Jew and you will find many examples in his writings.

But how do you know this is one of those examples. And if it is, would it not suggest that poetic metaphoric language is being used?

If you are going to attempt to make a grammatical argument, I'm not interested in unsupported opinions about kolasis, telos etc. Quote me a grammar.

Don't need to, it's definitional:
Strong's Greek: 2851. κόλασις (kolasis) -- correction

Correction last until the subject is corrected. Do you require a diagram?

If aionios does not mean eternal, what words can you add to it to make it mean eternal? Cite me a grammar.

who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forevermore. Amen. (Gal 1:4-5)
 
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Good now explain which one is which in Paul's writing and John's writings, and back it up, remember I'm not interested in unsupported opinion..

They're both from John's writings. Your point?
 
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Der Alte

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That is precisely the offence committed by damnationists. Don't be a recidivist der Alter!
We on the other hand have universal salvation promises and prophecies, a universal gospel and endtimes visions confirming universal renewal
.
Rubbish. You have no such thing. You have a bunch of out-of-context verses which you assume support UR. I have shown many times here that verses which you think support UR are contradicted by the same writer. For example Paul.
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all
This cannot mean that God is going to save, reconcile etc. all mankind including the unrighteous after death when Paul said more than once many people will not inherit the kingdom of God. Paul didn't say maybe someday.
1Co 6:9-11
(9) Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
(10) nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
(11) And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Gal 5:19-21
(19) The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
(20) idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
(21) and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Eph 5:5
(5) For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
 
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Rubbish. You have no such thing. You have a bunch of out-of-context verses which you assume support UR. I have shown many times here that verses which you think support UR are contradicted by the same writer. For example Paul.
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all
This cannot mean that God is going to save, reconcile etc. all mankind including the unrighteous after death when Paul said more than once many people will not inherit the kingdom of God. Paul didn't say maybe someday.
1Co 6:9-11
(9) Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
(10) nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
(11) And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Gal 5:19-21
(19) The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
(20) idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
(21) and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Eph 5:5
(5) For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

That's right, they need to repent and overcome first, by the grace of God, in order that the promises be fulfilled that all nations will be blessed, all things will be renewed/ restored, God will be all in all and the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ will be upon all.

The pearly gates are always open. The Book of Life, once opened by Jesus, can be shut by no man.

I think you know the scriptures to which I refer.
 
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Der Alte

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For all those who came to Jesus via Plato, they understood things in universal terms. Those who followed Aristotle were less robust.
Meaningless rubbish.
But how do you know this is one of those examples. And if it is, would it not suggest that poetic metaphoric language is being used?
The old heterodox cop-out. When anything contradicts UR blow it off as SPAM-Fig, symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, or figurative.
Don't need to, it's definitional:
Strong's Greek: 2851. κόλασις (kolasis) -- correction
Correction last until the subject is corrected. Do you require a diagram?
More rubbish. Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors or omissions. Also how do you know that Strong's is not Platonic or Aristotlean? Wait I know the answer if it supports UR then it is right if not then it is wrong. Note the blue highlights in this definition. Those are the historical sources the authors reviewed to determine the meaning. Unlike UR-ites genuine scholars don't sit around and make up definitions.
κόλασις, εως, ἡ (s. prec. three entries; ‘punishment, chastisement’ so Hippocr.+; Diod S 1, 77, 9; 4, 44, 3; Aelian, VH 7, 15; SIG2 680, 13; LXX; TestAbr, Test12Patr, ApcEsdr, ApcSed; AscIs 3:13; Philo, Leg. ad Gai. 7, Mos. 1, 96; Jos., Ant. 17, 164; SibOr 5, 388; Ar. [Milne 76, 43]; Just.)
infliction of suffering or pain in chastisement, punishment so lit. κ. ὑπομένειν undergo punishment Ox 840, 6; δειναὶ κ. (4 Macc 8:9) MPol 2:4; ἡ ἐπίμονος κ. long-continued torture ibid. Of the martyrdom of Jesus (Orig., C. Cels. 1, 48, 95; 8, 43, 12) PtK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices by polytheists ironically described as punishment, injury (s. κολάζω) Dg 2:9.
transcendent retribution, punishment (ApcSed 4:1 κόλασις καὶ πῦρ ἐστιν ἡ παίδευσίς σου.—Diod S 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80 [30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX; Philo, Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos., Ant. 1, 60 al.; Just.; Did., Gen., 115, 28; 158, 10) ApcPt 17:32; w. αἰκισμός 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal punishment (w. θάνατος) Dg 9:2 (Diod S 8, 15, 1 κ. ἀθάνατος). Of hell: τόπος κολάσεως ApcPt 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 εἰς ἐκεῖνον τὸν τόπον αἱ κολάσεως δεόμεναι ψυχαὶ καταπέμπονται); ἐν τῇ κ. ἐκείνῃ 10:25; ibid. ἐφορῶσαι τὴν κ. ἐκείνων (cp. ApcEsdr 5:10 p. 30, 2 Tdf. ἐν τῇ κ.). ἐκ τῆς κ. ApcPt Rainer (cp. ἐκ τὴν κ. ApcSed 8:12a; εἰς τὴν κ. 12b and TestAbr B 11 p. 116, 10 [Stone p. 80]). ἀπέρχεσθαι εἰς κ. αἰώνιον go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 (οἱ τῆς κ. ἄξιοι ἀπελεύσονται εἰς αὐτήν Iren. 2, 33, 5 [Harv. I 380, 8]; κ. αἰώνιον as TestAbr A 11 p. 90, 7f [Stone p. 28]; TestReub 5:5; TestGad 7:5; Just., A I, 8, 4; D. 117, 3; Celsus 8, 48; pl. Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 90, 13]). ῥύεσθαι ἐκ τῆς αἰωνίου κ. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. τὴν αἰώνιον κ. ἐξαγοράζεσθαι buy one’s freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3 v.l. κακαὶ κ. τοῦ διαβόλου IRo 5:3. κ. τινος punishment for someth. (Ezk 14:3, 7; 18:30; Philo, Fuga 65 ἁμαρτημάτων κ.) ἔχειν κόλασίν τινα τῆς πονηρίας αὐτοῦ Hs 9, 18, 1. ἀναπαύστως ἕξουσιν τὴν κ. they will suffer unending punishment ApcPt Bodl. 9–12. ὁ φόβος κόλασιν ἔχει fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 (cp. Philo, In Flacc. 96 φόβος κολάσεως).—M-M. TW.[1]
[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 555). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
 
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Meaningless rubbish.

Only if you have no idea of Platonism and Aristotelianism as modes of thinking.

The old heterodox cop-out. When anything contradicts UR blow it off as SPAM-Fig, symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, or figurative.

Fourfold interpretation of scripture. The spiritual sense is the highest.

More rubbish. Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors or omissions. Also how do you know that Strong's is not Platonic or Aristotlean? Wait I know the answer if it supports UR then it is right if not then it is wrong. Note the blue highlights in this definition. Those are the historical sources the authors reviewed to determine the meaning. Unlike UR-ites genuine scholars don't sit around and make up definitions.

Well, Clement of Alexandria who was a Greek-speaking scholar of the day was clear that it was correction, and the NT punishment was 'always kolasis never timoreisis'. Not good enough for you?
 
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"It may be said, is there not "the second death ?" Yes, assuredly. But though it were not the second merely but the thousandth death, yet it is but death: and death absolutely, in every degree and power, is destroyed, is blotted out, or there is no real meaning in S. PAUL'S song of triumph (1 Cor. xv. 55). No true victory has been won by Christ if the second death is too strong for Him. Will our opponents explain how "death" can be "SWALLOWED UP" in victory, and yet survive in its most malignant form, i.e., the second death?"

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter six --- emphasis mine

Good to see you're back, although probably only to participate in spouting meaningless heterodox worthless rubbish opinion.
 
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FineLinen

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Good to see you're back, although probably only to participate in spouting meaningless heterodox worthless rubbish opinion.

Dear Shrewd: Please give the Saint a break. Any person who can slog thru Christ Triumphant page after page with the diligence he has shown, well, just give him a break. LOL

I truly appreciate his spouting off of "meaningless heterdox worthess rubbish."
 
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Der Alte

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Only if you have no idea of Platonism and Aristotelianism as modes of thinking.
Irrelevant platitude.
Fourfold interpretation of scripture. The spiritual sense is the highest.
Interesting facts if indeed true. But how do these facts address anything I posted?
Well, Clement of Alexandria who was a Greek-speaking scholar of the day was clear that it was correction, and the NT punishment was 'always kolasis never timoreisis'. Not good enough for you?
Have you actually read Clement? Or is this something you copy/pasted because it seemed to support you assumptions/presuppositions. Which of Clement's writings, paragraph and section number? While you are looking that up read the first two entries written by Clement.
Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment"
• (Second Clement ibid., 17:7)
"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’".
Ignatius of Antioch[a student of John]
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).
Justin Martyr
"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments"
(First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
• "We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).
"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).
The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire"
• (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).
Mathetes
"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).
Athenagoras
"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).
Theophilus of Antioch
"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])
Irenaeus[student of Polycarp a student of John]
"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).
"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).
Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending"
• (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).
Hippolytus
"Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).
Minucius Felix
"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).
Lactantius
"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. … Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).



 
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Der Alte

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That's right, they need to repent and overcome first, by the grace of God, in order that the promises be fulfilled that all nations will be blessed, all things will be renewed/ restored, God will be all in all and the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ will be upon all.
The pearly gates are always open. The Book of Life, once opened by Jesus, can be shut by no man.
I think you know the scriptures to which I refer.
A vague allusion to a few out-of-context verses.
Where is this "promise" that all nations will be blessed, etc?
Where is any verse which states that the unrighteous will repent and overcome after death?

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
(5) For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.
(6) Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.

 
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Hillsage

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I love it. The cut/paste king of CF thinks that he has read an original autograph of any of these reputable sources...contrary to our reputable scholarly sources, which disagree with his.

Every one of the comments translated "eternal"have been translated into ENGLISH by the orthodox brainwashed mindset of the early heterodox church which he'd never shadow the door of today.

Let one of our scholarly sources translate the Greek originals above into ENGLISH, without the 'indoctrinated' mindset which has passed down for millennia as 'the truth'. Then you will discover the reality that the translations above are based upon 'their truth' and not 'our truth' concerning what these non ENGLISH men said....almost 2000 years ago. :idea:

If Robert Young YLT, or Joseph Rotherham or Richard Weymouth, 'bible translation scholars' of higher repute, any any one here, would have translated the supposedly 'reputable' sources quoted so often, I'm sure they wouldn't be used by those on 'the other side' of us today.
 
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mmksparbud

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This is happening on earth, not in heaven. The final restoration happens in the afterlife.
Will those who have been cremated here on earth (turned to ashes) be in the afterlife? Or is that the end for them?

OF COURSE IT HAPPENS ON EARTH! IT IS THIS EARTH, REMADE, THAT WE INHERIT. THE NEW JERUSALEM COMES DOWN FROM HEAVEN TO EARTH. This remade earth is our inheritance. We are only in heaven during the 1000 years. We are in the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven, when Satan rallies all his followers to attack the city. There is nothing left of those who have gone into the 2nd death. There is no 3rd resurrection for them. The wages of sin is death, not eternal life in some other form in some other realm.

(I'm constantly hitting the all caps by mistake, drives me nuts)
 
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mmksparbud

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Still didn't answer my question. Seems God does want to fry ppl if he does it twice over.

Eze_18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Eze_33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Heb_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

We all die once---then comes the judgement. The saved have their judgement when Jesus returns, for He returns only for the saved. This is the 1st resurrection. The wicked remain dead until after the 1000 yeasrs. Then they are resurrected for their judgement--this is the 2nd resurrection, the resurrection of the damned. They are judged according to their works and must then pay the price---the 2nd death from which there is no resurrection.
 
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FineLinen

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OF COURSE IT HAPPENS ON EARTH! IT IS THIS EARTH, REMADE, THAT WE INHERIT. THE NEW JERUSALEM COMES DOWN FROM HEAVEN TO EARTH. This remade earth is our inheritance. We are only in heaven during the 1000 years. We are in the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven, when Satan rallies all his followers to attack the city. There is nothing left of those who have gone into the 2nd death. There is no 3rd resurrection for them. The wages of sin is death, not eternal life in some other form in some other realm.

(I'm constantly hitting the all caps by mistake, drives me nuts)


Dear lady: Hitting all the caps is the least of your limitations.

At the foundation of your great need is your dokeo. And linked with your dokeo is having the Living Christ ministering ephphatha to you. Lay aside what you think you know, bury your dokeo in the closest cemetery, and listen to the wind words of the Spirit.
 
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Dear lady: Hitting all the caps is the least of your limitations.

At the foundation of your great need is your dokeo. And linked with your dokeo is having the Living Christ ministering ephphatha to you. Lay aside what you think you know, bury your dokeo in the closest cemetery, and listen to the wind words of the Spirit.

My dear whatever you are--- Your greatest need is the simple, plain truth of the word of God and not the mumbo-jumbo of your old men in pony tails tribe which have no knowledge of it. The Spirit does not need to teach that which is already clearly written. That is why God gave us brains. The Holy Spirit leads us to Him, and to His word for our insight and the Spirit will teach you as you need. You do not discard the clear word of the bible for some hipster sounding new age (there is nothing new under the sun)--garbage that leads you away from the word and into the 2nd death. Clean out the garbage of your mind with the words of the God of this universe who died for you so you do not have to!
 
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