BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

[mmksparbud]

Maybe engage in polite doctrinal discussions like those God-fearing hellfire-loving Catholics did at Constantinople back in the day? Wait on.

But the nations have already been nuked (devoured by fire in 20:9), why deep fry them in Rev 20:15 when they're already crispy?

Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. (Rom 12:21)

God doesn't want to fry anyone---but He will protect His own in the city and when they come against the city they come against God Himself and show their hatred of Him. If He says this is what will happen, then this is what will happen. Everyone of these people could have been inside the city with God, but they made their choice and they hate God and His ways and if they could, they would destroy Him and everyone in the city. They made their choice and God will respect their right to reject Him---they have no protection from His Godfire and it becomes their hellfire until they are ashes and sin is no more. If it is your preference to be with them, God will honor your choice, also. There is no coming out of the 2nd death---there is no resurrection from it and you have never given one bit of proof that there is---it is your manmade doctrines, taught by those who do not know the truth of God and have bought into the lie of Satan---"thou shalt not surely die." It was a lie then and it still is. You have the same choice that Adam and Eve had, you can believe the lies of Satan, or the truth of God.

 

[mmksparbud]

I was challenging your earlier statement below. Compare bold emphasis (mine) in both quotes.
You seemed to have softened your stance. Kudos.

He paid the price for everyone---but if they reject Him, then He has not paid the price for the lost. They have rejected His sacrificial offering and have no protection. He died for them,. but they reject his offer and so they will not be protected by His blood. His death is not the eternal death that they pay---His death was of the first resurrection death, but for the 2nd death, there is no resurrection. I stand by what God has said.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Nope.
I have heard of the "lost tribes" garbage though.

I have believed in the "lost tribes garbage" for many years. One of my more treasured books was written by a Dutch woman who lives in the UK. She makes a decent case for the Dutch being the tribe of Zebulun.

 

[Saint Steven]

if they reject Him, then He has not paid the price for the lost.

Make up your mind. Was the Atonement made for all, or only for some?

 

[Der Alte]

So your point is it may take an awfully long time to get corrected. Aionios kolasis. Ok.
Aionios is more a signifier in these contexts of 'otherworldly', or 'afterlife'. It's a chameleon of a word, as can be readily seen from its various renderings in different contexts throughout the NT.
I wouldn't lean too heavily on it, especially when we've got the universal gospel, divine promises of universal salvation, a seal of those promises in holy blood, and visionary endtimes prophecies confirming their fulfillment.
You want to pick over the bones, go ahead, but you'll find the devil's in the detail. I for one don't worship a 'better check the fine print' kind of a God.

After seeing the argument that "Aion never means eternity." and "Aionios never means eternal," many times and realizing that many people reject virtually all of the lexicons as biased etc. I decided to do a word study in the NT. I reviewed every occurrence of both words to see if either word could be defined by how they are used in the NT.
In twenty four [24] of the following verses αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
List of verses:1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33,Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 5:21, Romans 16:26, John 3:36, John 4;14, John 6:27,
…..In the NT “aion/aionios” sometimes refer to things which are not eternal but neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.

[1]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[2]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

[3]Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος] ​

In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

[4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] ​

In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[5]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens. ​

In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house only lasts a little longer which will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.​

In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[7]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you. ​

In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”

[8] 1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] ​

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[9]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios] ​

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[10]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios] ​

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[11]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[12]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion] ​

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”

[13]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. ​

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[14]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life. ​

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

​

[Continued next post Too many characters]

 

[Der Alte]

[Previous post continued.]

[15]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.​

In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”

[17] John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.

[18] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[19]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[20]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[21]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.​

In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[22] John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse aionios life is contrasted with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[23] John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.​

In this verse aionios is contrasted with “shall never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[24]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In this verse “aionios meat” is contrasted with “meat that perishes” .” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[25]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."​

According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent "The double negative “ ου μη/ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying whoever obeys Him will die, i.e. see death, unto the age, by definition aion means eternity.

 

[mmksparbud]

Make up your mind. Was the Atonement made for all, or only for some?

I was plain---It was made for all---but they must do as God has said--

Mar_16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

If they do not---then they are not covered by His blood---Nothing vague about it. You guys do not get the fact that God DOES NOT FORCE!! Not my rules---God's!

 

[Saint Steven]

I was plain---It was made for all---but they must do as God has said--

Mar_16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

If they do not---then they are not covered by His blood---Nothing vague about it. You guys do not get the fact that God DOES NOT FORCE!! Not my rules---God's!

I don't think it is forced. More like God in foreknowledge knows that the restoration of all things will be complete.

 

[Der Alte]

I don't think it is forced. More like God in foreknowledge knows that the restoration of all things will be complete.

If punishment does not turn criminals etc. into model citizens in this life, how can God's punishment turn the unrighteous into willing, loving followers of Jesus? Scripture?

 

[mmksparbud]

I don't think it is forced. More like God in foreknowledge knows that the restoration of all things will be complete.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

So you think God is lying here?? Where does it say anyone changed their minds and were saved? Were does it say anything was "restored?" How do you get "restored" out of devoured? The while bible testifies to the destruction of the wicked, not one verse on anyone coming out of the fire to spend eternity with God----something that monumental, and contrary to what is said everywhere else, should have had at least one verse stating that fact.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Doesn't sound much like anyone is coming out of this "restored."

 

[Saint Steven]

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

So you think God is lying here?? Where does it say anyone changed their minds and were saved? Were does it say anything was "restored?" How do you get "restored" out of devoured? The while bible testifies to the destruction of the wicked, not one verse on anyone coming out of the fire to spend eternity with God----something that monumental, and contrary to what is said everywhere else, should have had at least one verse stating that fact.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Doesn't sound much like anyone is coming out of this "restored."

This is happening on earth, not in heaven. The final restoration happens in the afterlife.
Will those who have been cremated here on earth (turned to ashes) be in the afterlife? Or is that the end for them?

 

[Saint Steven]

"Thus, too, the Psalmist strikingly prays, "that the wicked may perish, in order that they may know that God reigns over the earth." - Ps. lxxxiii. 17-8.

See, too, the verse, "When He slew them then they sought Him." - Ps. lxxviii. 34. On these words ORIGEN comments, "He does not say that some sought Him after others had been slain, but He says that the destruction of those who were killed was of such a nature that, when put to death, they sought God." - De prin. ii. ch. 5, iii. So, too, Elam is to be first consumed and then restored. - Jer. xlix. 37-9. So is Ammon to be restored after perpetual desolation - Zeph. ii. 9 and Jer. xlix. 6. So the dead bones are made alive. - Ez. xxxvii., and Israel comes up out of her graves. -ib. v. 13. cf 1 Samuel ii. 6."

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter six --- emphasis mine

 

[Lazarus Short]

53 “‘However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them, 54 so that you may bear your disgrace and be ashamed of all you have done in giving them comfort. 55 And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before; and you and your daughters will return to what you were before. 56 You would not even mention your sister Sodom in the day of your pride, 57 before your wickedness was uncovered. Even so, you are now scorned by the daughters of Edoma]">[a] and all her neighbors and the daughters of the Philistines—all those around you who despise you. 58 You will bear the consequences of your lewdness and your detestable practices, declares the Lord.

59 “‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will deal with you as you deserve, because you have despised my oath by breaking the covenant. 60 Yet I will remember the covenant I made with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you receive your sisters, both those who are older than you and those who are younger. I will give them to you as daughters, but not on the basis of my covenant with you. 62 So I will establish my covenant with you, and you will know that I am the Lord. 63 Then, when I make atonement for you for all you have done, you will remember and be ashamed and never again open your mouth because of your humiliation, declares the Sovereign Lord.’” Ezekiel 16:53-63, NIV

If God is going to restore the fortunes of Sodom and others, how can the wicked remain ashes? The theory of annihilation rests on scant Biblical evidence, as far as I have seen in the text.

 

[Saint Steven]

"In all this subject of death, there is an extraordinary narrowness in the views held generally, as though the fact of dying could change God's unchanging purpose; as though His never failing love were extinguished because we pass into a new state of existence; as though the power of Christ's Cross were exhausted in the brief span of our earthly life. So far from this, has not Christ abolished death? Is He not Lord of the dead? Did He not evangelize the dead? Has He not the keys of death? On the popular view, what depth of meaning can you possibly assign to these words?"

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter six --- emphasis mine

 

[Shrewd Manager]

God doesn't want to fry anyone---but He will protect His own in the city and when they come against the city they come against God Himself and show their hatred of Him. If He says this is what will happen, then this is what will happen. Everyone of these people could have been inside the city with God, but they made their choice and they hate God and His ways and if they could, they would destroy Him and everyone in the city. They made their choice and God will respect their right to reject Him---they have no protection from His Godfire and it becomes their hellfire until they are ashes and sin is no more. If it is your preference to be with them, God will honor your choice, also. There is no coming out of the 2nd death---there is no resurrection from it and you have never given one bit of proof that there is---it is your manmade doctrines, taught by those who do not know the truth of God and have bought into the lie of Satan---"thou shalt not surely die." It was a lie then and it still is. You have the same choice that Adam and Eve had, you can believe the lies of Satan, or the truth of God.

Still didn't answer my question. Seems God does want to fry ppl if he does it twice over.

 

[Hillsage]

Jesus is not paying, as an ongoing payment for sin. He has paid the price for sin.

Then 'ongoing payment' isn't the price of sin.

He died on the cross for past, present, and future sins.

Correct. And whose sins were forgiven with his sacrifice? Just lucky us? Or ALL the sins, of ALL?

1JO 2:2 And he is the propitiation/hilasmos for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Do you know the Greek definition of "propitiation"?

Strong's Hebrew/Greek Concordance #2434 hilasmos: atonement, i.e. (concretely) an expiator

Do you know the religious definition of atonement? "the reconciliation of God and humankind through Jesus Christ." It's a compound word meaning 'at one' 'ment'. IOW God is at one with everyone because Jesus paid the price for everyone concerning the ETERNAL/adios consequence of sins. All we have to worry about now is the TEMPORAL consequence of sins. And that process starts when we finish the reconciliation process by not having a problem with God. That makes it a two way 'finished' reconciliation, or as I like to say; ULTIMATE RECONCILIATION.

God demands mans blood for the price of sin. It is impossible for sinful man to pay his own sin debt. God in His mercy saw that man was doomed. He must pay for his sin but he can't. This where Jesus comes into the picture.

My opinion is what GOD required for payment....in the garden.

GEN 3:21 And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins, and clothed them.

In the Garden it was the shedding of animal blood and not man's, that was the temporal price for temporal forgiveness. And my biblical opinion is that there was NO BLOOD at all with John.

MAR 1:4 John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

So tell me Charlie does your theology agree with the bible that all those baptized by John had "forgiveness of sin" without blood being sacrificed or not? My theology has an explanation, but we're not going down that bunny trail either. Let's keep it the basics.

Now back to why God demands the blood of man for sin. God is righteous and holy, no sin can dwell in His presence. But he wants us in His presence. So what can God do?

Your biblically unsupported opinions again. You believe that the spirit of Christ/God (?) is in you, and you think your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit/God, right? Two positions I don't agree with, but we're dealing with you thinking 'God's presence is in you'. So for now; does your body still commit sin? Mine does. And so did Paul's.

ROM 7:17 So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it.

So if sin dwelled in Paul....and Me and , again assuming....YOU, then I guess your body can't be God's "dwelling presence" can it? IOW I just see this as being your 'religious indoctrinated opinion' which you were spoon fed/taught, just as I was. Well I need scripture to defend what you just said to convince me. Just like I had to go before God's Spirit to teach me why these verses also did not agree with my previously indoctinated POV.

He sent His Son to pay the sin debt of man that "whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Saved from what?

Saved from what, is a good question Charlie. And one asked by the Jews at the birth of the church. So let me, one who doesn't know the bible according to you a couple posts back answer your question biblically.

ACT 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him." 40 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation."

'Holy Gospel' Batman, did Peter forget to tell them about 'eternal HELL'? He said NOTHING about ETERNAL HELL here and near as I found, Peter never mentioned ETERNAL HELL/hades or gehenna anywhere. So the bible litmus is back on you to prove we were saved from HELL by accepting the death and resurrection of Jesus on/after the cross.

Rom. 2:5
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

We are saved from Gods wrath. His wrath is present because we don't repent, that's the "hardness and impenitent heart."

And the purpose of God's judgements are to ENDLESSLY, and there for PURPOSELESSLY TORTURE. And to even torture those who never heard or ever had a chance to receive....your litmus for faith and forgiveness? That's a bad plan Charlie.

PSA 36:6 Thy righteousness is like the mountains of God, thy judgments are like the great deep; man and beast thou savest, O LORD.

ISA 26:9 My soul yearns for thee in the night, my spirit within me earnestly seeks thee. For when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness. 10 If favor is shown to the wicked, he does not learn righteousness;

Your judgments from God produce nothing but 'punitive' punishment. Our judgments from God are 'purgative' or cleansing the unrighteous from unrighteousness.

What is Gods "righteous judgement?"

Accoridng to the scriptures it is judgment that produces RIGHTEOUSNESS in whoever the judgment is coming to.

2Thes. 2:12
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The price for sin thank God has been paid by Christ but we must repent of our sin to escape the judgement.

So if you commit a sin, but die in a anger filled wreck right after the fight before you REPENT....then I guess it's off to the judgment of ETERNAL HELL for you then? Better back that statement above better because I'm not biblically convinced with your 2 Thess 2 understanding personally. Those judgments are for repentence here and now' IMO. For sinners and saints.

Sorry this is so long. I'm thankful your post was so short. Because dealing with so much 'difference of opinion' SCRIPTURALLY (on my part) just takes a lot of space. I don't like long posts like this.

Also, my daughter, husband,kids are showing up in a few minutes from Dallas and then later my son, wife, kids are showing up from Topeka so I'm going to be limited for several days. And I'm not reading most of the posts here anyway. Moving too fast for me.

 

[Charlie24]

This began with a simple question and is now scattered to the winds.

We can accomplish nothing like this. Maybe when you have more time.

 

[Der Alte]

"In all this subject of death, there is an extraordinary narrowness in the views held generally, as though the fact of dying could change God's unchanging purpose; as though His never failing love were extinguished because we pass into a new state of existence; as though the power of Christ's Cross were exhausted in the brief span of our earthly life.

Great sounding words with no, zero, none verses of scripture to support them.

So far from this, has not Christ abolished death? Is He not Lord of the dead? Did He not evangelize the dead? Has He not the keys of death? On the popular view, what depth of meaning can you possibly assign to these words?"

Where did Christ evangelize the dead?

1 Peter 3:18-20
(18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
(19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.​

This has nothing to do with Jesus preaching to the dead in the realm of the dead, hell or where ever.
Death/hell is never called prison and prison is never called death anywhere in the Bible.
If Jesus was in hell etc. preaching to the dead, how is it that only 8 people were saved and they were alive not dead when they were saved.
Jesus did not preach to the dead. According to Eccl. the dead know nothing and there is no longer any reward for them and there is nothing for them any more forever.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
(5) For the living will know that they shall die: but the dead know nothing, and there is no longer any reward to them; for their memory is lost.
(6) also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, have now perished; yea, there is no portion for them any more for ever in all that is done under the sun.​

.

 

[Saint Steven]

"It may be said, is there not "the second death ?" Yes, assuredly. But though it were not the second merely but the thousandth death, yet it is but death: and death absolutely, in every degree and power, is destroyed, is blotted out, or there is no real meaning in S. PAUL'S song of triumph (1 Cor. xv. 55). No true victory has been won by Christ if the second death is too strong for Him. Will our opponents explain how "death" can be "SWALLOWED UP" in victory, and yet survive in its most malignant form, i.e., the second death?"

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter six --- emphasis mine

 

[Shrewd Manager]

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

According to you. I say Paul uses the 2 words because there is a distinction. I'd suggest they're not used interchangeably throughout scripture, and this only serves to show Paul had both in his vocabulary and that he made a distinction.

(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος] In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

Not necessarily, because 'and of his kingdom there shall be no end' would be utterly redundant if the first part was 'he shall reign...forever'. So again I'd be inclined to think some other meaning or nuance is present.

So just a couple of examples showing up your latent biases der Alter. I'm not saying aionios never connotes the eternal, but it's so contingent and unruly as to make it unreliable and speculative.

A clearer case is aionios kolasis, where kolasin punishment has a purpose, a telos, so the noun itself precludes the possibility of a supposed infinite extension by the adjective.