BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

[Lazarus Short]

Perhaps you should try actually reading your Bible along with the handful of out-of-context proof texts.

Revelation 21:4-8
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Note, vs. 4 “no more death” vs. 5, “I make all things new.” But in vs. 8 there are 8 groups of people thrown into the lake of fire which is still the “second death.”
In vs. 7 there is a condition, here is the converse of that condition, “He that overcometh NOT shall NOT inherit all things; and I will NOT be his God, and he shall NOT be my son.”

Nice try, a really nice try...and pardon me, BUT - the "fire and brimstone" of which you quote are both cleansing and purgative agents. Ancient people would have understood. Why would the wicked need to be cleaned and purged if they were going to be in Hell forever? OK, that's four questions, and my first three were not answered in your post, IMHO. Anyway, I don't see verse 8 stating they these non-overcomers will be in the Lake of Fire eternally, and the KJV does not ID it as being Hell.

 

[Der Alte]

Systematic not robotic theology der Alter. We're talking the living God, whose workflow involves creating something from nothing, life from death, hope from despair, honour from betrayal, rivers in the desert, fresh water springs in the sea, renewal, restoring sight to the blind, freeing the prisoners, healing the lepers and so forth.

Meaningless scribbling which does not address my post. If God had intended for the verse to read "Everyone shall inherit all things; and I will their God, and they shall be my children" as you want it to read that is what He would have inspired the prophet to write. But the prophet wrote it with a condition "[Only] He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be [only] his God, and [only] he shall be my son." That is systematic theology yours is the robotic!

 

[Der Alte]

Nice try, a really nice try...and pardon me, BUT - the "fire and brimstone" of which you quote are both cleansing and purgative agents. Ancient people would have understood. Why would the wicked need to be cleaned and purged if they were going to be in Hell forever? OK, that's four questions, and my first three were not answered in your post, IMHO. Anyway, I don't see verse 8 stating they these non-overcomers will be in the Lake of Fire eternally, and the KJV does not ID it as being Hell.

And yours is rubbish your inference what you think it means. All this scribbling and you ignore the words "second death." vs. 8. If "death" means "death" in vs. 4 then it doesn't mean cleansing and purging in vs. 8.

 

[Lazarus Short]

And yours is rubbish your inference what you think it means. All this scribbling and you ignore the words "second death." vs. 8. If "death" means "death" in vs. 4 then it doesn't mean cleansing and purging in vs. 8.

...and my questions remain unanswered.

 

[Der Alte]

...and my questions remain unanswered.

Rubbish! Go back and read my post it answered every one of your "questions."

 

[Hillsage]

Right.
Yet the Damnationist doctrine states that those whom God DID NOT draw to himself will be PUNISHED for all eternity with conscious torment both night and day with no hope of escape for the CRIME of not being drawn by God. Makes no sense to me. Maybe the Damnationists can explain this?

Oh of course they can explain that Steve. They've been doing so for a thousand years. Always standing on the shoulders of the same misunderstanding that goes back to the time of 'a church' who came up with so many doctrines they now disagree with. But the biggest false doctrine, is the one that most maligns the nature of the very God whom they 'claim' to serve.

What they also don't do, is acknowledge the cry of their very own hearts, as to just how wrong 'that view of God' hurts when they hear 'that' which we have 'seen and heard'. But sadly, they bury their 'heart hurt emotions'. That is why the nominal live in so much misery today. Never knowing they've buried their heart's emotion...ALIVE. And that is exactly where Satan wants them. That is how he changes the very chemistry of our brains to self destruct their bodies. That is how that belly crawling Serpent/Satan can eat the very 'sinful flesh' dust that we were all made of.

1CO 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

But even then, Satan's role fulfills an eternal judgment we all will receive...eventually. That being the salvation of our spirits. And that is the only thing that 'triune man' is "made in the image of God', as. But even this "deep" will also fail to be seen by those who only see the bottom....of the spiritual shallows wherein they walk.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Rubbish! Go back and read my post it answered every one of your "questions."

In light of the Lake of Fire NOT being Hell, and even the KJV does not ID it as such, my questions are NOT answered, IMHO - but don't worry about it.

 

[Hillsage]

His original plan was a Bible with no chapter or verses "interruptions" in the text. But he lost that battle with the publisher.

The publishers think too much of the money and rocking the ‘traditional mindset’ built on sand. I like the quote I found in a 'Used Christian book store' whose owner knows 'the business' of God....as well as ‘bottom line’ religious man.

"In the past, men of God, moved by the Spirit of God, wrote down what God laid on their heart. Then they took it to a publisher to see if they would print it.

Today, publishers of Christian literature, moved by the Spirit of the bottom line, approach name brand authors to have research teams produce books on hot button subject, to compete with other publishers.

I'm a used book dealer....Bob Steel"

How sad, but how true, did this man see, knowing the truth as to ‘credible sources’ quoted so often here. He died long ago, but his son was running the store when I first found it, in Kansas city 30 years ago.

 

[Der Alte]

In light of the Lake of Fire NOT being Hell, and even the KJV does not ID it as such, my questions are NOT answered, IMHO - but don't worry about it.

It is irrelevant that the LOF is not called hell. What does that have to do with anything? You haven't dealt with the fact that Rev 21:8 says the LOF is still the second death after vs. 4 says no more death and vs. 5 says all thing new, vs. 8 "second death" after vs. 4. How are you going to twist those verses to make them say what you want them to?

 

[Hillsage]

Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a grain of wheat fall into the earth and die, it abideth by itself alone; but if it die, it beareth much fruit.

When will a man ever know, that with God, it is with death, and indeed the very death of that death, which leads to the life that produces the fruit that men can “taste and see that the Lord is good”? I actually do know when most will ‘see’. And it will be on that day when even “they will know, even as they were known.”

But how sad it is, for them, in their temporal minded thinking’s, ‘now’.

 

[Saint Steven]

Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a grain of wheat fall into the earth and die, it abideth by itself alone; but if it die, it beareth much fruit.

When will a man ever know, that with God, it is with death, and indeed the very death of that death, which leads to the life that produces the fruit that men can “taste and see that the Lord is good”? I actually do know when most will ‘see’. And it will be on that day when even “they will know, even as they were known.”

But how sad it is, for them, in their temporal minded thinking’s, ‘now’.

Luke 9:24
For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it.

 

[Hillsage]

Luke 9:24
For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it.

I actually apply that verse to the understanding of 'working out the salvation of our souls' after our spirit's have been saved by virtue of the new birth. Since a spirit can't die, but the soul body of triune man can. Note what's missing below.

MAT 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

LUK 9:24 For whosoever will save his [5590] life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his [5590] life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Strong's #5590: psuche (pronounced psoo-khay')

from 5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from 4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from 2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

But translators, rather than translate this psuche from which we get the English word 'psychology, psycho somatic, psychogenic from. All words which correctly associate our thinking with 'mind, will, emotion' consistently. But they interpret it as "soul" 58 times and then say "life" 41 times in the NT. But they didn't really understand a lot of spiritual things correctly, back when 'writing bibles' was more of a controlling the souls/minds endeavor, by 'the church'. Not even STRONG's had a clue since he defined Psuche as "spirit", a word which psuche is never translated as in the NT. So much for the ignorance of credible sources.


OK, that wife of mine wants me to 'join the family'. Happy T Day you all...ALL.

 

[Lazarus Short]

The publishers think too much of the money and rocking the ‘traditional mindset’ built on sand. I like the quote I found in a 'Used Christian book store' whose owner knows 'the business' of God....as well as ‘bottom line’ religious man.

"In the past, men of God, moved by the Spirit of God, wrote down what God laid on their heart. Then they took it to a publisher to see if they would print it.

Today, publishers of Christian literature, moved by the Spirit of the bottom line, approach name brand authors to have research teams produce books on hot button subject, to compete with other publishers.

I'm a used book dealer....Bob Steel"

How sad, but how true, did this man see, knowing the truth as to ‘credible sources’ quoted so often here. He died long ago, but his son was running the store when I first found it, in Kansas city 30 years ago.

Hillsage, Steel's Used Christian Books is still in business, but has moved to North Kansas City due to the crime along, IIRC, Independence Avenue. The online address is: Steel's Used Books - Rare, used, out-of-print.

The last time I was there Mister Steel was smoking cigarettes and another fellow regaled me with talk of his prospective business, I think in hopes I would invest. I was sick from the tobacco for a few days after that, and decided to never go back. Other than that, I liked the store, and I did find some good books there.

 

[Lazarus Short]

It is irrelevant that the LOF is not called hell. What does that have to do with anything? You haven't dealt with the fact that Rev 21:8 says the LOF is still the second death after vs. 4 says no more death and vs. 5 says all thing new, vs. 8 "second death" after vs. 4. How are you going to twist those verses to make them say what you want them to?

How? I am not going to twist anything. I don't care to establish my beliefs by only one set of verses.

 

[Der Alte]

How? I am not going to twist anything. I don't care to establish my beliefs by only one set of verses.

Nor do I base my beliefs on one set of verses, but not out-of-context as some folks do.

 

[Hillsage]

Hillsage, Steel's Used Christian Books is still in business, but has moved to North Kansas City due to the crime along, IIRC, Independence Avenue. The online address is: Steel's Used Books - Rare, used, out-of-print.

The last time I was there Mister Steel was smoking cigarettes and another fellow regaled me with talk of his prospective business, I think in hopes I would invest. I was sick from the tobacco for a few days after that, and decided to never go back. Other than that, I liked the store, and I did find some good books there.

Being from the opposite side of the state I don’t venture that far East too often. But he sure helped me out a few times. Twice in person and another time years later by online and phone.

So are you a Kansas boy?

 

[Hillsage]

Hillsage, Steel's Used Christian Books is still in business, but has moved to North Kansas City due to the crime along, IIRC, Independence Avenue. The online address is: Steel's Used Books - Rare, used, out-of-print.

The last time I was there Mister Steel was smoking cigarettes and another fellow regaled me with talk of his prospective business, I think in hopes I would invest. I was sick from the tobacco for a few days after that, and decided to never go back. Other than that, I liked the store, and I did find some good books there.

Being from the opposite side of the state I don’t venture that far East too often. But he sure helped me out a few times. Twice in person and another time years later by online and phone.

So are you a Kansas boy too? If not, at least we both agree that ‘indoctrinated pretext’ clouds ‘context’. Hence the reason so many think we are wrong.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Being from the opposite side of the state I don’t venture that far East too often. But he sure helped me out a few times. Twice in person and another time years later by online and phone.

So are you a Kansas boy too? If not, at least we both agree that ‘indoctrinated pretext’ clouds ‘context’. Hence the reason so many think we are wrong.

I was born and raised in the Kansas City area, lived a few years in the Ozarks, a few in New Mexico, but lived in Kansas only for a few weeks at my sister-in-law's house in Overland Park, until we found a house in Independence, MO.

 

[Saint Steven]

I was born and raised in the Kansas City area, lived a few years in the Ozarks, a few in New Mexico, but lived in Kansas only for a few weeks at my sister-in-law's house in Overland Park, until we found a house in Independence, MO.

That must be interesting living in a city divided by a state line.

 

[Lazarus Short]

That must be interesting living in a city divided by a state line.

Yes, it is, and I have always felt that Missouri and Kansas were very distinct worlds.