BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

[mmksparbud]

I will leave this thread with the following. and leave you all to your own believes--I think I've said enough for now--things to do:
There are several parable that Jesus taught, several in Matt. I believe you know them so I will just post the endings of the parables.

Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.


Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Mat 22:6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

No one escapes the damnation of hell. The wicked will be punished--"according to their works"---not forever.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

I have no doubt that things will be winding up doon, maybe not in my lifetime, for I have a bad heart, amongst other things and am in hospice care---though they say they may kick me out of the club as I am not going fast enough!! I will go when God says so, as do we all.
Hope you all had a great Thanksgiving---I have tons to be grateful for.

 

[Hillsage]

I will leave this thread with the following. and leave you all to your own believes--I think I've said enough for now--things to do:
There are several parable that Jesus taught, several in Matt. I believe you know them so I will just post the endings of the parables.

Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.


Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Mat 22:6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

No one escapes the damnation of hell. The wicked will be punished--"according to their works"---not forever.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

I have no doubt that things will be winding up doon, maybe not in my lifetime, for I have a bad heart, amongst other things and am in hospice care---though they say they may kick me out of the club as I am not going fast enough!! I will go when God says so, as do we all.
Hope you all had a great Thanksgiving---I have tons to be grateful for.

Just doing a little 'look up the Greek definitions' and the way the false scribes inconsistently translated words, to support their indoctrinated POV. Doing so certainly reveals much to me, concerning your first reference. I have little doubt the last one would be the same, but not worth the time, especially since you're leaving. Plus, still plenty of family time going on.

I truly am sorry to hear of your poor health. I certainly don't think I'd be in the controversial forums if I had heart health problems.

I do agree with you though, we too are blessed and fortunate also. I prayed Psalms 100:4 before the family meal today. I pray the same for your heart upon entering his gates and courts, should He tarry and the "last enemy" of God come.

 

[FineLinen]

I have no doubt that things will be winding up doon, maybe not in my lifetime, for I have a bad heart, amongst other things and am in hospice care---though they say they may kick me out of the club as I am not going fast enough!! I will go when God says so, as do we all.
Hope you all had a great Thanksgiving---I have tons to be grateful for.

Dear Lady: I join with Sage in wishing the Lord's care for you in this stage of your life.

"A pearl is a beautiful thing that is produced by an injured life. It is the tear [that results] from the injury of the oyster. The treasure of our being in this world is also produced by an injured life. If we had not been wounded, if we had not been injured, then we will not produce the pearl."

 

[Der Alte]

...

Just doing a little 'look up the Greek definitions' and the way the false scribes inconsistently translated words, to support their indoctrinated POV. ...

I see some version of this accusation quite often,"the false scribes inconsistently translated words, to support their indoctrinated POV." Without a few semesters of Hebrew and Greek, how does one determine that any word is mistranslated or "inconsistently translated?" It has been my experience that heterodox believers seek out and find anything which supports their assumptions/presuppositions. I have both widely accepted lexicons, hard cover and electronic, BDB Hebrew and BDAG Greek. Do you know of any peer reviewed lexicons superior to these two. I think I can say without fear of contradiction that no you can't. I have been asking for 2 decades and none have been produced yet.

 

[Saint Steven]

"Be aware" of Universal Reconciliation - God is reconciling all things through Christ.

Colossians 1:16-20
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

 

[Saint Steven]

"Man is created in God's very Image and Likeness. What does this involve? It is (1). God's affirmation of universal Fatherhood. (2). God's assumption of the holiest duties towards every man. (3). God's investing every man with inalienable rights.

I contend that such a tie between God and Man can never be broken, that in the Origin of mankind Scripture bids us see their destiny, that God must realize finally that ideal which he traced in Creation. We are told God is not the Father of all men; He is only their Creator! What a total misapprehension these words imply of all that is involved in creating man in the likeness of God, in the image of God. Viewed thus, Creation contains the Gospel in germ; it involves universal Fatherhood. "Have we not all one Father," asks the Prophet, why? "Has not one God created us? "- Mal. ii. ii. 10. "Lord, You art our Father * * we are all the work of Your hand." Is. lxiv. 8. "The Protevangelium (the earliest gospel) is Gen. i. 26. 'Let us make man in Our image, after Our likeness.'" - WESTCOTT on Heb. i. 2.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter six

 

[Hillsage]

"Man is created in God's very Image and Likeness. What does this involve? It is (1). God's affirmation of universal Fatherhood. (2). God's assumption of the holiest duties towards every man. (3). God's investing every man with inalienable rights.

I contend that such a tie between God and Man can never be broken, that in the Origin of mankind Scripture bids us see their destiny, that God must realize finally that ideal which he traced in Creation. We are told God is not the Father of all men; He is only their Creator! What a total misapprehension these words imply of all that is involved in creating man in the likeness of God, in the image of God. Viewed thus, Creation contains the Gospel in germ; it involves universal Fatherhood. "Have we not all one Father," asks the Prophet, why? "Has not one God created us? "- Mal. ii. ii. 10. "Lord, You art our Father * * we are all the work of Your hand." Is. lxiv. 8. "The Protevangelium (the earliest gospel) is Gen. i. 26. 'Let us make man in Our image, after Our likeness.'" - WESTCOTT on Heb. i. 2.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter six

Continuing on with your theme of the Father of all. And not a failure like the birth fathers, we all had in comparison to Him.

HEB 12:9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

I love this author's euphemism of "discipline seems painful." Well, yes it does "seem" painful. Especially when it includes;

HEB 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Hopefully, all those here can look behind the 'literal scourging', and with spiritual eyes see the 'symbolic' implication of such harsh words of punishment 'even' for CHRISTIANS in scripture. I certainly don't think myself dumb enough to believe we'll get a 'literal scourging' from our 'loving Father'. And, thankfully I have some brethren here who also are 'smart' enough to carry the euphemisms of punishment for CHRISTIANS over to the punishments of the rest of the Father's spirit CHILDREN. Children whom he will "receiveth/paradecomai" after he "calls, draws, chooses, ordained to believe" by an act of HIS WILL.

And what of those that he doesn't do so in this world?

JOB 14:13 "Oh that You would hide me in Sheol, That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You, That You would set a limit for me and remember me!

YES YES YES the wrath of God will return to God. Not because we repented. But because His plan and His ways are above the ways of the carnal mind thinkers.

OH YES, the same Hebrew word SHEOL above was, HELL 31 times in the KJV. Then the scribes of KJV translated the same word as GRAVE 30 times . Oh 'consistency' of the false scribes, 'what a jewel' the teaching of UR/UNI would have been for THEM to find.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Told you---the wicked have been resurrected, the saved were the first resurrection. Satan gathers the resurrected wicked.

But that's obviously not what it teaches.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Those in the first resurrection shall be priests of God and Christ, whereas the nations in the 4 quarters of the earth are those others gathered by Satan after the 1000 years. It is the nations, not the priests, who return in Rev 21:24-26 and Rev 22:2.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Right. These folks are happy to claim that "all" doesn't mean all. Unless it is in reference to a text that supports Damnationism.

That's it, think I'll explore this a little further. The question is can Jesus be found in the OT using only a strict literal interpretation? Might start a thread shortly.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

It was called the Dark Ages; and for good reason.

WAS??

 

[Saint Steven]

WAS??

Should we "christen" a NEW Dark Ages, or say it is a continuation?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Should we "christen" a NEW Dark Ages, or say it is a continuation?

Fitting application of dark humour there Steve.

The other thing is Hades, which in Greek mythology was the land of the Shades (notice the word is an anagram also). So it kind of fits as a translation of Sheol which is this gloomy sort of a place for the dead. But figuratively, this is a world of greys, just relativism, uncertainty, probability, shifting sands, corks on oceans etc - no absolutes, no rock of ages, men running to and fro, going at it blind.

So could say cheerily what was conceived as the dark ages has now spawned hell on earth.

And yet the spirit of God hovers over the waters.

 

[FineLinen]

The two S's (Steve & Shrewd) are at it again.

This is a wonderful thread that Skid (the 3rd S) has begun. Why would God ever consider healing broken lives? Why would those who have never heard Him speak to them once in their dark lives not be tormented for the endless ages? Surely we who have made the right decisions, who have walked the straight and narrow, do not ever need to contemplate God ever accomplishing what He set out to do. Surely not!

Why should God succeed in what He began?

 

[Saint Steven]

The two S's (Steve & Shrewd) are at it again.

This is a wonderful thread that Skid (the 3rd S) has begun. Why would God ever consider healing broken lives? Why would those who have never heard Him speak to them once in their dark lives not be tormented for the endless ages? Surely we who have made the right decisions, who have walked the straight and narrow, do not ever need to contemplate God ever accomplishing what He set out to do. Surely not!

Why should God succeed in what He began?

Mark 2:17
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Romans 4:5
However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 5:6
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

The two S's (Steve & Shrewd) are at it again.

This is a wonderful thread that Skid (the 3rd S) has begun. Why would God ever consider healing broken lives? Why would those who have never heard Him speak to them once in their dark lives not be tormented for the endless ages? Surely we who have made the right decisions, who have walked the straight and narrow, do not ever need to contemplate God ever accomplishing what He set out to do. Surely not!

That's right. God's given us Jesus. I've signed up, made a lot of sacrifices. But those weak blind sinful fools, they've made their bed, and eternal torment shall be their wages (it's a surprise payrise).

 

[Hillsage]

That's it, think I'll explore this a little further. The question is can Jesus be found in the OT using only a strict literal interpretation? Might start a thread shortly.

Oh oh, I may be in trouble if you do a thread like that. I personally believe there was no 'JESUS' in the OT. There was "the word" which was "God who is spirit". But "the Word" did not become the spirit/soul/flesh of 'the man Jesus'. "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us".

There was 'the spirit of Christ' in the OT though, and it was 'that spirit' which was in the man Jesus at His birth, as well as in us at our spirit's rebirth.

1PE 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

But don't let me derail things.

 

[Der Alte]

Mark 2:17
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Romans 4:5
However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
Romans 5:6
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Matthew 7:22-223
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. ​

 

[Jord Simcha]

I believe that "whosoever believes on Him shall not be ashamed" Romans 10:11

Not one thing He will do ever will make me ashamed of Him.

Eternal torture can therefore not be any thing He does.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Matthew 7:22-223
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. ​

I looked up Matthew 12:32 in interlinear form on Biblehub. It rendered "this world" as "this age." Now if the present age is about to close, and the next one lasts a thousand years, they will be forgiven rather soon, compared to eternity.

I note that Jesus said nothing to the workers of iniquity in Matthew 7:22-23 other than that they depart from Him. As in 12:32, no specific sentence or punishment is given.

In another context, Jesus said "If it were not so, I would have told you." In the above verses, He fails to specify what so many add in, so I must wonder about those theo-illogical ad-libs.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I believe that "whosoever believes on Him shall not be ashamed" Romans 10:11

Not one thing He will do ever will make me ashamed of Him.

Eternal torture can therefore not be any thing He does.

Jord - excellent second post and excellent logic!