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Der Alte

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I looked up Matthew 12:32 in interlinear form on Biblehub. It rendered "this world" as "this age." Now if the present age is about to close, and the next one lasts a thousand years, they will be forgiven rather soon, compared to eternity.
Interesting theo-illogical ad-libs on your part. Where does Jesus say that after the age He or God will forgive those who blasphemed the Holy Spirit?
I note that Jesus said nothing to the workers of iniquity in Matthew 7:22-23 other than that they depart from Him. As in 12:32, no specific sentence or punishment is given.
What does never mean to you? Since God and Jesus are immortal, eternal etc. never is not limited as it is with us mortals.
In another context, Jesus said "If it were not so, I would have told you." In the above verses, He fails to specify what so many add in, so I must wonder about those theo-illogical ad-libs.
What have I added to any verse, anywhere? You are the one adding salvation in verses where it does not appear. Logical fallacy, argument from silence.
 
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JSRG

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No problem Z. I've been presenting my 'back up' below, for years here. And in all these years nobody....as in no one...as in zero, has ever refuted the following reference I'm going to share....again. So please "study to show yourself approved" and prove that Philip Schaff was a universalist and therefore just a biased source. I actually tried to research it myself, but never could prove that point. All I could find on him was that he was a respected theologian who wrote a whole lot of respected works in his life.


"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist,
one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by
Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."
I don't know about Philip Schaff being a universalist, but I should note that the person who wrote the article in question, George T. Knight, was a universalist... or at least that's what his Wikipedia article says.

I've often seen people throw out this claim of the "six theological schools" and their beliefs, but it's always that article that they cite; I've never seen any other basis for the claim. The article does list a bibliography, but doesn't say where each individual claim is from. I tried looking into the books it mentions in the bibliography, though, and didn't find backup for that claim, though it is possible I missed something (these are long books I didn't read through, I just tried searching for relevant terms on their archive.org uploads and didn't find anything--but it is possible it missed something).

I actually came across this topic when trying to search for better backup for its claim regarding the six theological schools. Anyone have any backup for it than the article? If it's true, then surely there should be more sources attesting to it than a century-old encyclopedia article written by a universalist, but again I never see people cite anything else.
 
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Hillsage

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I don't know about Philip Schaff (or Herzog) being universalists, but I should note that the person who wrote the article in question, George T. Knight, was a universalist... or at least that's what his Wikipedia article says.

I've often seen people throw out this claim of the "six theological schools" and their beliefs, but it's always that article that they cite; I've never seen any other basis for the claim. The article does list a bibliography, but doesn't say where each individual claim is from. I tried looking into the books it mentions in the bibliography, though, and didn't find backup for that claim, though it is possible I missed something (these are long books I didn't read through, I just tried searching for relevant terms on their archive.org uploads and didn't find anything--but it is possible it missed something).

I actually came across this topic when trying to search for better backup for its claim regarding the six theological schools. Anyone have any backup for it than the article? If it's true, then surely there should be more sources attesting to it than a century-old encyclopedia article written by a universalist, but again I never see people cite anything else.
I don’t guess anyone would expect a eternal hell believer to quote that reference. So your observation/ comment there just understandably reveals your own personal thoughts and bias IMO. But as to ‘the reference’ you’re right it is hard to know the bibliography without investing money. And no one seems willing to do that. So unless anyone can disprove the article or prove that Phillip Schaff is a proven liar then the reference stands as far as I’m concerned. He wrote an awful lot of respected books. And as for your doubting a 100 year old source??? What makes you think sources coming out of the spiritual dark ages of a 1000 years ago are any more reputable??? The church that invented hell dominated world religion as well as governments with an iron fist and blood soaked sword for many centuries. They attempted to kill any who ‘disagreed’ and destroy all that was ‘written’ to control all. And that is pretty easily found historical fact.
 
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I actually came across this topic when trying to search for better backup for its claim regarding the six theological schools. Anyone have any backup for it than the article? If it's true, then surely there should be more sources attesting to it than a century-old encyclopedia article written by a universalist, but again I never see people cite anything else.

I don't know if the sources are or should be plentiful. The facts are the Christianity in its early days was the way of light and life. So good news actually meant good news (no strings attached), and Greek speakers understood that all NT references to divine punishment were corrective (kolasis not timoreisis). That's all it takes. Conversely, it's hard work to shoehorn in a damnation theology that is on its face anathema to everything God is and Jesus does.
 
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Der Alte

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I don't know if the sources are or should be plentiful. The facts are the Christianity in its early days was the way of light and life. So good news actually meant good news (no strings attached), and Greek speakers understood that all NT references to divine punishment were corrective (kolasis not timoreisis). That's all it takes. Conversely, it's hard work to shoehorn in a damnation theology that is on its face anathema to everything God is and Jesus does.
Nonsense. Saying "punishment were corrective (kolasis not timoreisis)" does not make it so,
2 of 4 pages.

Ignatius of Antioch
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).
Second Clement
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’" (ibid., 17:7).
Justin Martyr
"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).
"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).

The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).
Mathetes
"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).
Athenagoras
"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).
Theophilus of Antioch
"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])
Irenaeus
"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).
"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . it is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).

 
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Eternal torture can therefore not be any thing He does.

Eternal torment offends against the nature and character of God in so many ways, including His:
  • Justice, as the sentence infinitely outweighs any earthly crime.
  • Righteousness, as it makes Him a hypocrite by telling us the gospel is good news for all, to turn the other cheek, forgive endlessly and so on.
  • Holiness, by reducing Him to an arsonist who sells fire insurance, or a psycho who demands your love with a gun to your head.
  • Power and victory, as He wants all men saved but somehow most will be damned.
 
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Nonsense. Saying "punishment were corrective (kolasis not timoreisis)" does not make it so,
2 of 4 pages.

Ignatius of Antioch
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).
Second Clement
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’" (ibid., 17:7).
Justin Martyr
"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).
"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).

The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).
Mathetes
"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).
Athenagoras
"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).
Theophilus of Antioch
"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])
Irenaeus
"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).
"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . it is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).

Almost none of those quotes are contrary to corrective punishment, as per the NT (kolasis not timoreisis).

Yes, sinners may be cast into everlasting fire, yes, many will experience it as torment, and yes it will entail destruction of the old man. But it's purpose is to renew, regenerate and restore. GOD'S SALVATION IS THE OMEGA der Alter, you might have heard somewhere?
 
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JSRG

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I don’t guess anyone would expect a eternal hell believer to quote that reference. So your observation/ comment there just understandably reveals your own personal thoughts and bias IMO.
...huh? I'm not even sure what you're talking about here.

But as to ‘the reference’ you’re right it is hard to know the bibliography without investing money. And no one seems willing to do that.
No one has to invest money to look at the books it gives in the bibliography for history. They're all on archive.org, that's how I looked them up. But none of them support the 6-school claim, at least not that I could see. Again, I didn't read through 300-page-long works because spending hours searching for something that might be there doesn't seem worth it. But archive.org does let you search through them. I tried searching for things like "school" or "ephesus" and there were no relevant matches.

So unless anyone can disprove the article or prove that Phillip Schaff is a proven liar then the reference stands as far as I’m concerned. He wrote an awful lot of respected books.
What in the world does this have to do with anything? One doesn't have to claim Philip Schaff is a "proven liar" to wonder if maybe he could have made a mistake--especially when he wasn't even the one to write the article.

What we have as (apparently) the sole proof for the claim of the six schools is an offhand reference in an article by a univeralist in a single encyclopedia article from over a century ago. Is it unreasonable to expect a higher level of proof than that?

And as for your doubting a 100 year old source??? What makes you think sources coming out of the spiritual dark ages of a 1000 years ago are any more reputable???
This doesn't make any sense at all. I didn't cite anything from 1000 years ago.

The point of the 100-year-old source remark is it seems no one can point to anything newer than that which doesn't simply cite that source, or anything that explains the logic behind the source. If that is the case, the most plausible explanation is that the 100-year-old source is either inaccurate and thus no one continued with its claim (especially given that where it got the information is unclear), or its claim is out of date so it was abandoned. The fact this claim (apparently) comes only from an out-of-date encyclopedia entry that doesn't clearly cite its source and was written by someone inclined towards universalism therefore makes it feel very suspect.

Maybe there is more than that. That's exactly why I asked, as I'm trying to figure out what the basis of that claim actually is.
 
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Hillsage

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I don't know about Philip Schaff being a universalist, but I should note that the person who wrote the article in question, George T. Knight, was a universalist... or at least that's what his Wikipedia article says.

I've often seen people throw out this claim of the "six theological schools" and their beliefs, but it's always that article that they cite; I've never seen any other basis for the claim. The article does list a bibliography, but doesn't say where each individual claim is from. I tried looking into the books it mentions in the bibliography, though, and didn't find backup for that claim, though it is possible I missed something (these are long books I didn't read through, I just tried searching for relevant terms on their archive.org uploads and didn't find anything--but it is possible it missed something).

I actually came across this topic when trying to search for better backup for its claim regarding the six theological schools. Anyone have any backup for it than the article? If it's true, then surely there should be more sources attesting to it than a century-old encyclopedia article written by a universalist, but again I never see people cite anything else.
I'm sorry I wasn't following you clearly concerning George. So, let's just forget George who was a universalist, and quote Edward Beecher who was a Congregationalist. The following is from Ken Vincent's book. Admittedly, Ken is a Universalist. Hope this helps.

"According to Edward Beecher, a Congregationalist theologian, there were six theology schools in Christendom during its early years - four were Universalist ( Alexandria , Cesarea, Antioch , and Edessa ). One advocated annihilation ( Ephesus ) and one advocated Eternal Hell (the Latin Church of North Africa). Most of the Universalists throughout Christendom followed the teachings of Origen. Later, Theodore of Mopsuestia had a different theological basis for Universal Salvation, and his view continued in the break-away Church of the East (Nestorian) where his Universalist ideas still exist in its liturgy today."


Above quote can be found here;
The Salvation Conspiracy: How Hell Became Eternal
 
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Saint Steven

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I don't know about Philip Schaff being a universalist, but I should note that the person who wrote the article in question, George T. Knight, was a universalist... or at least that's what his Wikipedia article says.

I've often seen people throw out this claim of the "six theological schools" and their beliefs, but it's always that article that they cite; I've never seen any other basis for the claim. The article does list a bibliography, but doesn't say where each individual claim is from. I tried looking into the books it mentions in the bibliography, though, and didn't find backup for that claim, though it is possible I missed something (these are long books I didn't read through, I just tried searching for relevant terms on their archive.org uploads and didn't find anything--but it is possible it missed something).

I actually came across this topic when trying to search for better backup for its claim regarding the six theological schools. Anyone have any backup for it than the article? If it's true, then surely there should be more sources attesting to it than a century-old encyclopedia article written by a universalist, but again I never see people cite anything else.
Welcome to the forum, and for an awesome post.
 
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I'm sorry I wasn't following you clearly concerning George. So, let's just forget George who was a universalist, and quote Edward Beecher who was a Congregationalist. The following is from Ken Vincent's book. Admittedly, Ken is a Universalist. Hope this helps.

"According to Edward Beecher, a Congregationalist theologian, there were six theology schools in Christendom during its early years - four were Universalist ( Alexandria , Cesarea, Antioch , and Edessa ). One advocated annihilation ( Ephesus ) and one advocated Eternal Hell (the Latin Church of North Africa). Most of the Universalists throughout Christendom followed the teachings of Origen. Later, Theodore of Mopsuestia had a different theological basis for Universal Salvation, and his view continued in the break-away Church of the East (Nestorian) where his Universalist ideas still exist in its liturgy today."


Above quote can be found here;
The Salvation Conspiracy: How Hell Became Eternal

Dear Sage: There is one iron clad road to grasping what is described as a "mystery" in the Scripture. One takes the Scripture into his closest closet, shuts the door, leaves the door shut and listens to what the Spirit is saying. You may be required to stay up all night, perhaps many nights as you and the Mighty One wrestle.

I personally know a remarkable Calvinist who wrestled for nearly 10 years before a mighty awakening took place within him in the contest.

Mystery = musterion =

Not the mysterious, but that which, being outside the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known only by Divine revelation, and is made known in a manner and at a time appointed by God, and to those only who are illumined by His Spirit.
 
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Okay, so looking into it further, it seems that the original claim for the six alleged schools and their opinions comes from "History of opinions on the scriptural doctrine of retribution" by Edward Beecher; his discussion of it begins on chapter 22. One may view it here.

Having read through Beecher's arguments concerning the schools, while he does have some valid points to make, I also see serious problems with the argument. Essentially, its major basis amounts to "this theologian taught this and was really esteemed by these schools, so said schools agreed with them on it." Alexandria and Caesarea are stated to be universalists due to esteeming Origen. Antioch and Edessa are stated to be universalists due to having great affection for Theodore of Mopsuestia. Irenaeus is cited for Ephesus because he taught conditionalism, and Tertullian/Augustine for Carthage/Rome.

There are three problems I see with this. First, however revered a particular teacher was, this does not mean their "school" in general agreed with every point of doctrine. Not counting the writers of the Bible itself, Augustine was perhaps the single most influential theologian on the Catholic Church (the only other contender for that title is Aquinas), but not all of his ideas were fully accepted by it.

Beecher himself admits and points to several in those schools influenced by Theodore that rejected universalism. And I should note that John Chrysostom, who I will return to again later, was no believer in the doctrine and exerted considerable influence on Eastern churches. So this argument of "this highly esteemed teacher believed this, so the schools they were part of or influenced believed it" comes up wanting for me.

The second is that such individuals can only be counted as representative of their own time. What about before them? What about after them? Irenaeus (who we'll get to), for example, wrote in the last second century. What about Ephesus at other times?

Third is the question of whether these individuals had the beliefs that are ascribed to them. Theodore of Mospuestia I have often seen considered a universalist, even by those who are not universalist. But I am not sure if the evidence for this is actually that strong. It appears, at least in the arguments I have seen, to primarily rest on two points. The first is his writings, but the only writing I see cited that is unambiguously universalist is a quote attributed to him in "The Book of the Bee" (page 140) which was written 800 years later and thus a tenuous witness. Again, perhaps there is more, but I can only go by what I see people cite. The other is to claim there are universalist statements in the liturgies of his churches and their successors, but this post on this very forum from someone familiar with the applicable churches says the claim is in error and comes from misunderstanding of the liturgy by outsiders.

Continuing on the question of whether the leaders believed what was ascribed to him, we turn to Irenaeus, presented as a believer in annihilationism/conditionalism. The chief prooftext for this is Book 2, Chapter 34, specifically the statement "And, for this reason, the Lord declared to those who showed themselves ungrateful towards Him: “If you have not been faithful in that which is little, who will give you that which is great?” indicating that those who, in this brief temporal life, have shown themselves ungrateful to Him who bestowed it, shall justly not receive from Him length of days for ever and ever." This is cited as proof of Irenaeus's annihilationism.

However, that is assuming that is exactly what Irenaeus said. There is a problem with Irenaeus: Most of Against Heresies exists to us only in a Latin translation, and a poor one at that (see here, which says the translation is of "the most barbarous character"). In cases like this, where whether it's an endorsing of something or not depends on the turn of a few words, I am hesitant to take much from it for fear it's the result of the translation being muddled. For the record, I for the same reason am very hesitant of trusting the quotes given in this topic from Irenaeus apparently affirming eternal damnation from Against Heresies, as those too fall under the question of how well it was translated.

This also brings up the question of, even if they did believe in such things, how influential those ideas of them were. Irenaeus, even if an annihilationist, hardly seems to have discussed it much. A highly influential theologian is far more influential in the areas they wrote much about, not things they made offhand references to a few times.

Still, that is concerning annihilationism, not universalism. We then come to Origen, and while his universalism seems quite clear (even if it is debated how far he went in those beliefs), we again come to the earlier problems in ascribing his views on one particular doctrine to the schools he is claimed to have influenced.

To be fair, later on Beecher does start discussing other teachers in Chapter 29. However, his arguments here mostly amount to "they didn't criticize universalism, so they must have believed in it." That seems weak. But further, this is assuming he is portraying them accurately. I see one case where he is not doing so.

In Chapter 30, he begins with John Chrysostom. He says Chrysostom mentions universalism a few times without criticizing it, and therefore believed in it. For example, he cites Chrysostom's commentary on 1 Corinthians 15:38 (I assume he means 15:28, as a different posting of the work has) and says that Chrysostom "simply says that the doctrine of universal restoration has been inferred from that passage, makes a striking statement of the result, and says nothing to refute the opinion." But having examined Chrysostom's exposition of it here (Homily #39), I do not see what it is talking about. Granted, Chrysostom writes a bunch about that verse in dry language so I could have missed it in all of the text, but I didn't see it.

But the bigger problem is that Beecher completely skips over a writing of Chrysostom that proves, no doubt, that he was not a universalist. Please examine Homily #9 of the same epistle. Chrysostom is as blunt as can be: "This is no small subject of enquiry which we propose, but rather about things which are of the first necessity and which all men enquire about; namely, whether hell fire have any end. For that it has no end Christ indeed declared when he said, “Their fire shall not be quenched, and their worm shall not die.”" His statements immediately after that one reinforce his rejection of universalism further. This therefore leaves me with a question: If Beecher is this astoundingly inaccurate regarding Chrysostom, who was as clear as could be considering his rejection of universalism, how accurate am I to trust him in representing others?

To be fair, Beecher does seem to indicate Chrysostom preached eternal punishment: "Elsewhere Neander says that in his [Chrysostom's] field of labor he felt that the doctrine of eternal punishment was necessary to alarm the worldly and deter them from sin, and so he preached it to the multitude (“Ch. History,” vol. ii., p. 676, Torrey’s translation)." Two problems. First, the citation is inaccurate. Page 676 of Volume 2 is found right here, and it's the Torrey translation for the record. Nothing about Chrysostom is there. Maybe he got the page number wrong, but Chrysostom is mentioned more than 200 times in the book and I'm not going to search for it. In any event, when one sees a passage as clear as the above from Chrysostom, one needs more than this kind of speculation to argue he believed in universalism. By this logic, I must as well argue that any early Christians who believed in universalism didn't actually believe in it, but preached it to make people feel better!

All that said, while I believe Beecher overstates his case regarding how much universalism was believed in (at least in regards to his "six schools" argument), his arguments that belief in universalism did not seem to be considered a problem (and something reasonable people could disagree about) in the early church were much stronger. One explanation for this could be, however, that universalism was far down the ladder on things to have disputes about. Things like Marcionism and Arianism were much bigger fish to fry, and compared to them, universalism vs. annihilationism vs. damnation was an intellectual curiosity. Only once these much more critical doctrines were settled did something like universalism become something to be critically examined.

THEREFORE, the conclusion of this long, rambling post is that, if Beecher is the source for the argument regarding the different schools, I have to confess I believe he comes up short in his argument. It simply relies too much on claiming a particular influential person believed in the doctrine and that therefore it must have been thought of highly in the areas they influenced (assuming the instances of claimed influence are as grand as was claimed by Beecher), plus a bunch of speculation on his part. One can take his points and put forward an argument that in the early centuries universalism wasn't looked down upon, but as an argument of the predominance of universalism, I feel it--at least in the form of the six schools argument--comes up short.
 
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Saint Steven

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Okay, so looking into it further, it seems that the original claim for the six alleged schools and their opinions comes from "History of opinions on the scriptural doctrine of retribution" by Edward Beecher; his discussion of it begins on chapter 22. One may view it here.
Thanks for all this detailed research. Wow.

Would you agree that your findings prove that Universalism is not a modern invention but has its roots in the early church? (and even in the NT church) I think that is the main point here.
 
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Der Alte

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<SS>Almost none of those quotes are contrary to corrective punishment, as per the NT (kolasis not timoreisis).
Yes, sinners may be cast into everlasting fire, yes, many will experience it as torment, and yes it will entail destruction of the old man. But it's purpose is to renew, regenerate and restore. GOD'S SALVATION IS THE OMEGA der Alter, you might have heard somewhere?<SS>
Nonsense! I am not interested in your unsupported opinion, nor the opinions of any UR "expert" you care to quote. I quoted the writings of the ECF and your response is nothing more than this kindergarten taunt. "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!" You did not address anything in my post and as I said I have another two pages.
I will believe UR only when someone can quote God, Himself or Jesus, Himself, stating unequivocally "All mankind will be saved even the unrighteous sinners after death."
 
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Jord Simcha

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I will believe UR only when someone can quote God, Himself or Jesus, Himself, stating unequivocally "All mankind will be saved even the unrighteous sinners after death."
How about 1 Timothy 4:10 ? :)

Luke 3:6 ?

How about God reconciling all things to Himself through/in Christ and becoming all in all?
 
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FineLinen

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How about 1 Timothy 4:10 ? :)

Luke 3:6 ?

How about God reconciling all things to Himself through/in Christ and becoming all in all?

Dear Jord: Welcome to the wonderful world of Christian forums.

The passages of Scripture you have posted is part of why there are those who grasp the Glorious Hope of the Father of all fathers actually acomplishing what He began.

God is the Saviour of all, not some, not many, the all with special emphasis on the "especially". [Things] is not in the koine passage of Colossians, but ta pante sure is. God is reconciling the all, the ta pante to Himself. God is the A. & E.

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Der Alte

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How about 1 Timothy 4:10 ? :)
Luke 3:6 ?
How about God reconciling all things to Himself through/in Christ and becoming all in all?
Perhaps you did not understand my question. I will believe UR only when someone can quote God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, stating unequivocally "All mankind will be saved even the unrighteous sinners after death."
 
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Jord Simcha

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Perhaps you did not understand my question. I will believe UR only when someone can quote God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, stating unequivocally "All mankind will be saved even the unrighteous sinners after death."
Yeah I understood. At first I almost wanted to start out by saying "I can't accomodate your -even the unrighteous sinners after death- part literally", but I figured I'd just ask you to interpret those verses. I quoted God, did I not? Or to be literal, the software did for me, praise God.
In 1 Timothy 4:10 it says "especially those that believe", meaning also the unbelievers, does it not?
In Luke 3:6, well, all flesh, I wonder what you make of it, as also of my last question.
 
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@FineLinen: And hope maketh not ashamed!!!!! :amen:

Dear Jord: And what a hope it is! The entire vision of God bringing the whole groaning creation back to Himself as the prophets have declared puts a capital H in my old bones!

I Believe

I believe in “the restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouths of the prophets since the world began.” -Acts 3:21-

I believe that the “good tidings of great joy will be to all people.” -Luke 2:10

I believe that believers in Christ Jesus are “born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God.” -John 1:13-

I believe

I believe that God appointed Jesus Christ “heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.” -Hebr. 1:2-

I believe that “no man can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him.” -John 6:44

I believe “God gave Jesus authority over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as God gave him.” -John 17:2-

I believe

I believe the Father “has given all things into Jesus’ hands.” -John 13:3-

I believe that Jesus Christ “was the true light which gives light to every man who come into the world.” -John 1:9

I believe that “just as the result of one trespass was condemnation to all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification for all men.” -Romans 5:18

I believe one mans sin “brought condemnation for all mankind.” -Romans 5: 19-

I believe one mans righteousness brings “right relationship with God, and new life for everyone.” -Romans 5:19-

I believe one mans sin made the whole of mankind sinners. I also believe the righteousness of one Man makes the whole of mankind righteous.
 
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