Best Video To Send To Non-Believers On Morality

[Moral Orel]

What commonly passes for knowledge is intersubjective also, unless you believe personal intuition is a basis for knowledge.

I know that 2+2=4. How is that subjective?

 

[gaara4158]

I can’t even get past the bullet points on the thumbnail. You won’t get far with me with moral arguments since I’m fully prepared to bite the “your basis for morality is ultimately arbitrary and subjective” bullet. Everyone’s is.

 

[FireDragon76]

I know that 2+2=4. How is that subjective?

Numbers aren't real... they are abstractions of reality and exist only as concepts.

 

[Moral Orel]

Numbers aren't real... they are abstractions of reality and exist only as concepts.

Uh-oh.... You're one of the "everything is subjective" types, aren't you?

 

[FireDragon76]

Uh-oh.... You're one of the "everything is subjective" types, aren't you?

No, I just don't believe mathematics represents anything but abstractions of reality.

 

[Moral Orel]

No, I just don't believe mathematics represents anything but abstractions of reality.

Math is one way we try to describe reality, so are words. If we can't say that something as simple as 2+2=4 is an objective fact, then we can't make any statements that are.

 

[Moral Orel]

I can’t even get past the bullet points on the thumbnail. You won’t get far with me with moral arguments since I’m fully prepared to bite the “your basis for morality is ultimately arbitrary and subjective” bullet. Everyone’s is.

lol, yeah. It was this very argument for God's existence that proved to me that morality is subjective (I usta think it wasn't). I realized that all they are doing is deferring to a different subject to decide what is moral or immoral, and poof!

 

[FireDragon76]

Math is one way we try to describe reality, so are words. If we can't say that something as simple as 2+2=4 is an objective fact, then we can't make any statements that are.

Math is symbolic representation, and like all representations, it's meaning isn't objective but socially constructed.

 

[Moral Orel]

Math is symbolic representation...

So is all of human language. Ergo, nothing we have to say is objective. Ergo, everything is subjective.

 

[FireDragon76]

So is all of human language. Ergo, nothing we have to say is objective. Ergo, everything is subjective.

Language is intersubjective. The whole point is to communicate something. Not necessarily facts, though.

 

[Ken-1122]

Numbers aren't real... they are abstractions of reality and exist only as concepts.

Numbers may not be real, but they represent things that are real. So what the numbers represent is completely objective.

 

[Ken-1122]

Math is symbolic representation, and like all representations, it's meaning isn't objective but socially constructed.

Numbers are representative tokens that represent things that are real. Math is a system we derived to calculate said representative tokens. Though math is socially constructed, it is based on objective facts. IOW whatever math was used to calculate, is objective.

 

[Moral Orel]

Language is intersubjective. The whole point is to communicate something. Not necessarily facts, though.

No, not ever facts. Remember, like you said:

"like all representations, it's meaning isn't objective"

Logic and reason is just an attempt to organize our ideas of concepts into formulations that create new knowledge. If everything that goes into reason lacks objectivity, everything that comes out of it is too.

 

[FireDragon76]

Numbers are representative tokens that represent things that are real. Math is a system we derived to calculate said representative tokens. Though math is socially constructed, it is based on objective facts. IOW whatever math was used to calculate, is objective.

It represents things that are perceived as real in some contexts.

 

[Ken-1122]

It represents things that are perceived as real in some contexts.

True; it can represent things that are perceived as real, or it can represent things that actually are real.

 

[Chriliman]

True; it can represent things that are perceived as real, or it can represent things that actually are real.

Tying this excellent point back to morality; is suffering from injustice real? If so, can we say morality is a representation of that reality?

 

[Ken-1122]

Tying this excellent point back to morality; is suffering from injustice real?

It is subjectively real to the person suffering; so yes.

If so, can we say morality is a representation of that reality?

Not quite. Morality is a judgment concerning the right vs wrong of the suffering.

 

[Moral Orel]

It represents things that are perceived as real in some contexts.

Again, if that works for math it works for language. There isn't anything more special about one set of symbols and rules over the other. And if everything we use to think about anything is reduced to mere abstractions that can't touch real objectivity, then thinking is pointless.

 

[FireDragon76]

Again, if that works for math it works for language. There isn't anything more special about one set of symbols and rules over the other. And if everything we use to think about anything is reduced to mere abstractions that can't touch real objectivity, then thinking is pointless.

Human language and thought have limitations in terms of grasping truth.

Are you familiar with Gödel’s incompleteness theorem?

 

[Moral Orel]

Human language and thought have limitations in terms of grasping truth.

Are you familiar with Gödel’s incompleteness theorem?

Yep. 2+2=4 is one of the things that can be proven true though, so I don't think it helps your case.

Honestly, I can't defeat that kind of nihilism, and I don't think anyone can. I'm just pointing out that putting all claims on the same level of uncertainty makes all thought worthless. You're going to have to make some assumptions in order to believe anything.