Best Argument For or Against God's Existence

[SkyWriting]

Can you provide an example of a "miracle" that could not be explained by a hoax, a fraud, a hallucination, an exaggeration, or an outright fabrication?

37 Miracles of Jesus

# Miracle Matthew Mark Luke John
1 Jesus Turns Water into Wine 2:1-11
2 Jesus Heals an Official's Son 4:43-54
3 Jesus Drives Out an Evil Spirit 1:21-27 4:31-36
4 Jesus Heals Peter's Mother-in-Law 8:14-15 1:29-31 4:38-39
5 Jesus Heals Many Sick at Evening 8:16-17 1:32-34 4:40-41
6 First Miraculous Catch of Fish 5:1-11
7 Jesus Cleanses a Man With Leprosy 8:1-4 1:40-45 5:12-14
8 Jesus Heals a Centurion's Servant 8:5-13 7:1-10
9 Jesus Heals a Paralytic 9:1-8 2:1-12 5:17-26
10 Jesus Heals a Man's Withered Hand 12:9-14 3:1-6 6:6-11
11 Jesus Raises a Widow's Son in Nain 7:11-17
12 Jesus Calms a Storm 8:23-27 4:35-41 8:22-25
13 Jesus Casts Demons into a Herd of Pigs 8:28-33 5:1-20 8:26-39
14 Jesus Heals a Woman in the Crowd 9:20-22 5:25-34 8:42-48
15 Jesus Raises Jairus' Daughter to Life 9:18,
23-26 5:21-24,
35-43 8:40-42,
49-56
16 Jesus Heals Two Blind Men 9:27-31
17 Jesus Heals a Man Unable to Speak 9:32-34
18 Jesus Heals an Invalid at Bethesda 5:1-15
19 Jesus Feeds 5,000 14:13-21 6:30-44 9:10-17 6:1-15
20 Jesus Walks on Water 14:22-33 6:45-52 6:16-21



I'm not sure if Saints need one or two miracles under their belt.

List of saints canonized by Pope Francis

 

[SkyWriting]

"I" exist - my phenomenal self - as needed by my brain as a component of how the brain processes information. When my body sleeps tonight, "I" will cease to exist. I will remember being me tomorrow morning when my body wakes.

The existence of dreams suggest you don't cease when you sleep.
Plus infants learn about the continuance of entities with the game Peek-a-boo.
I'm not sure how you've suppressed that learning.

 

[SkyWriting]

You can barely fit a descent amount of animals in a zoo. But of course you can put a lot more on an ancient wooden boat. Have you witnessed a miracle?

I have read about animals hibernating in the dark for months.
If you call patient research a miracle, then yes.

LIST OF ANIMALS THAT HIBERNATE

Reptiles and Amphibians -Box turtles
reduce their heart rate to one beat
every five to 10 minutes and they
stop breathing.
Bees
Mammals
Light Hibernation

 

[The Cadet]

37 Miracles of Jesus

# Miracle Matthew Mark Luke John
1 Jesus Turns Water into Wine 2:1-11
2 Jesus Heals an Official's Son 4:43-54
3 Jesus Drives Out an Evil Spirit 1:21-27 4:31-36
4 Jesus Heals Peter's Mother-in-Law 8:14-15 1:29-31 4:38-39
5 Jesus Heals Many Sick at Evening 8:16-17 1:32-34 4:40-41
6 First Miraculous Catch of Fish 5:1-11
7 Jesus Cleanses a Man With Leprosy 8:1-4 1:40-45 5:12-14
8 Jesus Heals a Centurion's Servant 8:5-13 7:1-10
9 Jesus Heals a Paralytic 9:1-8 2:1-12 5:17-26
10 Jesus Heals a Man's Withered Hand 12:9-14 3:1-6 6:6-11
11 Jesus Raises a Widow's Son in Nain 7:11-17
12 Jesus Calms a Storm 8:23-27 4:35-41 8:22-25
13 Jesus Casts Demons into a Herd of Pigs 8:28-33 5:1-20 8:26-39
14 Jesus Heals a Woman in the Crowd 9:20-22 5:25-34 8:42-48
15 Jesus Raises Jairus' Daughter to Life 9:18,
23-26 5:21-24,
35-43 8:40-42,
49-56
16 Jesus Heals Two Blind Men 9:27-31
17 Jesus Heals a Man Unable to Speak 9:32-34
18 Jesus Heals an Invalid at Bethesda 5:1-15
19 Jesus Feeds 5,000 14:13-21 6:30-44 9:10-17 6:1-15
20 Jesus Walks on Water 14:22-33 6:45-52 6:16-21

Yeah, see, none of these fall under the "verified" category. All of these could easily be any of the above things. The fact that the bible says it is not good enough. We don't believe the bible to be true.

 

[nonbeliever314]

I have read about animals hibernating in the dark for months.
If you call patient research a miracle, then yes.

LIST OF ANIMALS THAT HIBERNATE

Reptiles and Amphibians -Box turtles
reduce their heart rate to one beat
every five to 10 minutes and they
stop breathing.
Bees
Mammals
Light Hibernation

I have read about animals hibernating in the dark for months.
If you call patient research a miracle, then yes.

LIST OF ANIMALS THAT HIBERNATE

Reptiles and Amphibians -Box turtles
reduce their heart rate to one beat
every five to 10 minutes and they
stop breathing.
Bees
Mammals
Light Hibernation

What does that have to do with

I have read about animals hibernating in the dark for months.
If you call patient research a miracle, then yes.

LIST OF ANIMALS THAT HIBERNATE

Reptiles and Amphibians -Box turtles
reduce their heart rate to one beat
every five to 10 minutes and they
stop breathing.
Bees
Mammals
Light Hibernation

‘And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every sort into the ark to keep them alive with you. They shall be male and female. Of the birds according to their kinds, and of the animals according to their kinds, of every creeping thing of the ground, according to its kind, two of every sort shall come in to you to keep them alive.’

What does hibernation have to do with cramming a ton of animals on an ancient wooden ship?

 

[Colter]

What does that have to do with


‘And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every sort into the ark to keep them alive with you. They shall be male and female. Of the birds according to their kinds, and of the animals according to their kinds, of every creeping thing of the ground, according to its kind, two of every sort shall come in to you to keep them alive.’

What does hibernation have to do with cramming a ton of animals on an ancient wooden ship?

And clean animals since the story was written long after Moses substituted animal sacrifice for human sacrifice the Hebrews geneology patch put some clean animals on the mythological boat.

 

[Isaacsname]

You work on that and get back to us when you have something of significance.

When you have something significant to say about what I presented, I'll get back to you

 

[bhsmte]

When you have something significant to say about what I presented, I'll get back to you

I addressed your comments in post #1643

 

[SkyWriting]

What does that have to do with


‘And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every sort into the ark to keep them alive with you. They shall be male and female. Of the birds according to their kinds, and of the animals according to their kinds, of every creeping thing of the ground, according to its kind, two of every sort shall come in to you to keep them alive.’

What does hibernation have to do with cramming a ton of animals on an ancient wooden ship?

It was not ancient. It was brand new and designed by the Creator of the universe.
It only needed to stay upright as it had no engine.
Do you know how much room a hibernating turtle, that is not breathing, needs?
And there are no waves or even a breeze mentioned, so it needed not be
ocean worthy. It just needed to be buoyant.

God could have had the Ark carved out of rock if He was looking for dramatic effect.

 

[Isaacsname]

I addressed your comments in post #1643

Oh, ok, well, I'll just pretend like I didn't see it

 

[bhsmte]

Oh, ok, well, I'll just pretend like I didn't see it

Ok, if that works for you.

 

[SkyWriting]

Yeah, see, none of these fall under the "verified" category. All of these could easily be any of the above things. The fact that the bible says it is not good enough. We don't believe the bible to be true.

I mentioned the Catholic ones because they are verified by committee.
The rest have historical examination to back them up.

The problem for your argument is that there is no historical records
of critics denying any of the events. And quite a few historical critics
supporting the events.

If such stories circulated that were not true, there should be a substantial
outcry from people who were present against the idea that these events
happened. But there is no such outcry from the people of the time.

Plus there is current support:
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/biblehistorydaily/

 

[The Cadet]

I mentioned the Catholic ones because they are verified by committee.
The rest have historical examination to back them up.

The problem for your argument is that there is no historical records
of critics denying any of the events. And quite a few historical critics
supporting the events.

I guarantee you that you will never find a historical critic of the 200 BC rise of Lady GaGa's time-traveling Fabulous Pink Orc Barbarian Horde who lived contemporary with said event (they were all murdered on Lady GaGa's orders in order to avoid paradoxes). The claim that there are historical records of people supporting any of these miracles is dubious at best. Care to provide them?

If such stories circulated that were not true, there should be a substantial
outcry from people who were present against the idea that these events
happened. But there is no such outcry from the people of the time.

You are aware that none of the authors of the New Testament were actually contemporaries of Jesus, right? Why would one expect historical critiques of a tiny religious cult at the time? It wasn't until hundreds of years later that Christianity exploded, and when it did so, it did so as the official religion of the government, making critiques of it rather... gauche.

 

[SkyWriting]

You are aware that none of the authors of the New Testament were actually contemporaries of Jesus, right?

Not even the harshest critics support that stand. You would be the first.

None of the Gospels mention the destruction of the Jewish temple in A.D. 70. This is significant because Jesus had prophesied concerning the temple when He said "As for these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down." (Luke 21:6, see also Matt. 24:1; Mark 13:1). This prophecy was fulfilled in A.D. 70 when the Romans sacked Jerusalem and burned the temple. https://carm.org/when-were-gospels-written-and-by-whom

 

[bhsmte]

Not even the harshest critics support that stand. You would be the first.

You need to read up a bit.

Even most conservative Christian scholars readily admit, the gospels were penned 40-70 years after Jesus died and were penned by anonymous authors. Significant consensus on this issue.

 

[SkyWriting]

What does hibernation have to do with cramming a ton of animals on an ancient wooden ship?

Sleeping animals do not need as much space as does a zoo.

http://www.bartonwillmore.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Chester-Zoo-masterplan.jpg

 

[Davian]

So people have failed to build an Ark? Your own testimony negates your claim.

Some have shown the Ark design to be too weak to stand up to waves.
They took the idea that it existed from scripture.
They took the construction method from scripture.
But then they added their own idea of storm waves........not found in scripture.
And high winds........not found in scripture.

Still, no one has replicated that alleged ark.

 

[Davian]

37 Miracles of Jesus

# Miracle Matthew Mark Luke John
1 Jesus Turns Water into Wine 2:1-11
2 Jesus Heals an Official's Son 4:43-54
3 Jesus Drives Out an Evil Spirit 1:21-27 4:31-36
4 Jesus Heals Peter's Mother-in-Law 8:14-15 1:29-31 4:38-39
5 Jesus Heals Many Sick at Evening 8:16-17 1:32-34 4:40-41
6 First Miraculous Catch of Fish 5:1-11
7 Jesus Cleanses a Man With Leprosy 8:1-4 1:40-45 5:12-14
8 Jesus Heals a Centurion's Servant 8:5-13 7:1-10
9 Jesus Heals a Paralytic 9:1-8 2:1-12 5:17-26
10 Jesus Heals a Man's Withered Hand 12:9-14 3:1-6 6:6-11
11 Jesus Raises a Widow's Son in Nain 7:11-17
12 Jesus Calms a Storm 8:23-27 4:35-41 8:22-25
13 Jesus Casts Demons into a Herd of Pigs 8:28-33 5:1-20 8:26-39
14 Jesus Heals a Woman in the Crowd 9:20-22 5:25-34 8:42-48
15 Jesus Raises Jairus' Daughter to Life 9:18,
23-26 5:21-24,
35-43 8:40-42,
49-56
16 Jesus Heals Two Blind Men 9:27-31
17 Jesus Heals a Man Unable to Speak 9:32-34
18 Jesus Heals an Invalid at Bethesda 5:1-15
19 Jesus Feeds 5,000 14:13-21 6:30-44 9:10-17 6:1-15
20 Jesus Walks on Water 14:22-33 6:45-52 6:16-21



I'm not sure if Saints need one or two miracles under their belt.

List of saints canonized by Pope Francis

Now go ahead and demonstrate how each of those could not be explained by a hoax, a fraud, a hallucination, an exaggeration, or an outright fabrication.

 

[Davian]

The existence of dreams suggest you don't cease when you sleep.
Plus infants learn about the continuance of entities with the game Peek-a-boo.
I'm not sure how you've suppressed that learning.

Suggest? Do you have anything else?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Sleeping animals do not need as much space as does a zoo.

http://www.bartonwillmore.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Chester-Zoo-masterplan.jpg

Noah had tranquillisers?